oblivionvortex

I'm with you... Hell, if this "16%" is JUST retail... I'd wager, in terms of overall sales--once digital distribution is included--the PC numbers might rival or exceed the PS3 numbers...

@Markez -

True dizzle... they can't be us or see us...

(heh heh... I'm just glad someone actually caught the reference...)

No Lan Support in Diablo 3? No Lan support in Starcraft II?? No dedicated servers, mod support, customization options, or command console availability in Modern Warfare 2? Chargin' $60 for PC games when there's no Microsoft or Sony tax on the platform--just to make a straight money grab--all the while, stickin' it to the entire PC community with piss-poor ports like Aspyr's Guitar Hero 3 and MW2?? Plus Bobby's deplorable, admitted strategy of IP exploitation, price gouging, and FUD promotion??

"Now when I came out, I told you it was just about Bobby...
Then everybody had to open their mouth with a motherf*ckin opinion...
Well this how we gonna do this:
F*ck Vivendi
F*ck Bobby
F*ck Activision as a developer, publisher and as a motherf*ckin crew
And if you wanna be down with Activision... Then f*ck you too
Blizzard Entertainment, f*ck you too
All you motherf*ckers, f*ck you too"

Alright, I'm seriously done with you... Not only are you not even bothering to read (and therefore fully comprehend) my posts before you start spewing your ill-focused counter-rants all over the page, I think you just simply fail to grasp the entire concept of a discussion or an argument...


>> "Now you turn an argument about hardware specifications into units sold ?

Does units sold have any impact on quality and performance ?"


You're a total gimp. You blankly said "match the PS3" without defining the terms and parameters, I was trying to demonstrate your inability to effectively communicate an idea by applying the vague idea of "matching" to any other criteria related to the debate. THEN I brought it back around to "graphics" to show you that you're basing your entire notion of "matching" simply on "graphics performance."

>> "but to try and say that its better than UC2 technically, no sorry your wrong.."

Once again, you'd actually get a point if you were countering my argument, but you're not. I already prefaced my statement by saying "this is a subjective area to begin with." As an aside, basing technical supremacy of a system solely on said system's capability for MSAA, by your own definition, shows the inferiority of the PS3, since, empirically, the PS3 has fewer top-shelf titles with AA support than the 360... you basically admitted as much yourself when you began your initial rant and discussed the 360's hardware based AA, several posts ago...

So, no, "YOU'RE" wrong.. Again...

That said, once again, pay attention. At this point we're both making SUBJECTIVE comparisons. You previously held up U2 an a penultimate example of graphical superiority of the PS3:

http://ps3thevolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/uncharted_2_among_thieves_-5.png

and I said, and I think you will find this very difficult to dispute: "the 360 version of ME2 hangs with (and in some cases exceeds) Uncharted 2 in terms of graphical quality: specifically in regards to (but not limited to) facial animation, character models."

http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/105/1050705/mass-effect-2-20091201104325201.jpg

http://images.gamersyde.com/image_mass_effect_2-12118-1789_0003.jpg

>> "What about uncharted 2 ? Its triple buffered with vsync and has 2 x MSAA According to digital foundry.. Notice the difference now ?"

Don't try to condescend, you tool. I've been runnin' games with more graphics options enabled than your precious PS3's under-performing RSX is capable of dreaming about on a 500+ clock-cycle overclock. I KNOW that Uncharted 2 has more "edge effects" than ME2 for 360, but that doesn't mean the graphics are inherently better. Nor does it mean the PS3 hardware is capable of vastly outperforming/out-enhancing the 360 in similar circumstances (e.g., if PS3 were to run ME2) To illustrate the former point: I can load up Quake 3 at 2560x1600 with 16x Anio. and 8xMSAA and it still won't have "better graphics" than a current gen game (like, RE5) running without the bells and whistles at 720P. And before you start shouting that I'm comparing U2 to Quake 3, take a chill pill and realize it's an exaggerated illustration to make a specific point. The fact that I have to add such a disclaimer demonstrates how lame it is to try to argue with you.

"Yeah I guess all of my sources are Wikipedia right ?"

*laughing* mostly, yeah...

>> "turn 10 1st party ms games studios, why is it that forza 3 runs at a lower native resolution than gt5:prologue ? I wont get into the lighting etc (also better in gt5:p) .."

Already posted a link for that one... Next...

>> "Your whole thread of tantrum throwing nonsensical garbage has been based around the assumption that I posted the comment for you.."

NO it hasn't been. My initial post was a response to your FIRST PAGE WALL HOGGER, you're such a mofacky you can't even read the evidence that's been there for days!

MY first FOLLOW-UP was based on the assumption that you were writing me because you can't get a handle on joystiq's posting system. You said you weren't. Forgive me if I don't take your word at face value, not like you've been very reliable. And you keep bringing this up like it's some evidence you're winning an argument: IT IS ENTIRELY UNRELATED TO THE DISCUSSION. I already explained the stuff I wrote you, (whether or not your response was intended for me or not) was STILL APPLICABLE TO YOU IN EVERY RESPECT. Criminy... Are you, like 13 or something?

>> By your own admission the joystiq comment system is "lame"

Yeah? And? I don't have a problem with it... I've adapted... You apparently haven't... are you daft? Why is it no one else has as much trouble posting as you? You've double posted, like, 8 times in our back-and-forth and once even prayed to the "internet computer posting gods" to let the post come through! why do you keep getting so defensive about it? heh heh heh

"and therefore in conclusion it stands to complete reason that the comment I posted was not intended for you.."

And therefore, in conclusion, it stands to complete reason that the comment I posted WAS intended for you, regardless of whoever you intended your comment for. Game set and match.

>> "Can you admit to being wrong ?"

Can you admit you're out of gas and can't stick to related matters?

>> Dude all you have proven so far is that your full of hot air,

*sighs* No, I haven't I've taken you apart point by point several times now, and you haven't even addressed the issues, you just single out one or two "gotcha" bits, that I summarily smash the next time I'm around...

>> "you havent provided any evidence to back up any of your statements and yet you continue.."

*laughing* "There's nothing so absurd that if you repeat it often enough, people will believe it." - William James

>> "I thought you played ME2 on the pc ? How can you possibly compare a pc game to a ps3 game ? that make absolutely no sense at all.."


Really? That's all you have? You are a total dolt... Just because I personally play the PC version doesn't mean I haven't seen the bleeding game running on a 360! Hell, I BOUGHT a copy of the 360 version as a birthday present for my friend who doesn't have a decent gaming rig (yeah, I actually have friends who play consoles). Beside the fact that you can walk into pretty much any Best Buy or GameStop in the country to see the game running on a 360... You know, you really are as dumb as your posts make you look... And, I stand by the statement: the 360 version of ME2 hangs with (and in some cases exceeds) Uncharted 2 in terms of graphical quality: specifically in regards to (but not limited to) facial animation, character models.


>> "You have no evidence to back up any of your statements other than rubbish about 1st party vs 3rd party.. The 360 has been out a year longer and microsoft has been throwing money at studies like its going out of fashion and its still not managed to match any ps3 exclusives.."

What are you on about?? Not managed to Match? 360 exclusives EXCEED PS3 exclusives in terms of units sold, return following, revenue generated, etc. All very important benchmarks, I'd say... Are you still yelping about the graphics of a handful of games? Ah... One of those... Already responded to that...

About 1st vs. 3rd party, I have plenty of evidence...hell, why don't you go to you favorite source, Wikipedia, to see Microsoft Game Studio's list of 1st-party dev teams... 70% were PC-centric sub-studios that have been closed, recently, by Microsoft (including Ensemble, ACES and Digital Anvil) as it turns its attention and focus to console gaming. The rest are upstarts (like 343 and Spawnpoint), or produce Legacy/casual and/or family games (Rare; XBL Productions). The only two 1st-party teams currently pushing "hardcore" titles are Lionhead (Fable, which, technically, did not start as an exclusive 360 series) and Turn 10 (Forza).

More to the point: Microsoft's bread and butter top-shelf games are from 3rd PARTY DEVELOPERS (developers like Epic--which also produced PS3 games like UT3 and created the UE3 engine which was patently designed to be multi-platform; BioWare, who just developed the multi-platform Dragon Age: Origins; and Bungie, who split from MS back in '07 and said they were open to developing for other platforms)

You want to talk about exclusivity to the highest bidder? You act like Sony isn't buying studios and exclusivity. And what if MS is blowing cash on some (mostly TIMED) exclusives?? Sony has paid (and is paying) far MORE for exclusivity than MS... FACT: Sony BOUGHT Naughty Dog and Zipper Interactive, OWNS Santa Monica, Team Ico, Guerilla Games--VERIFIABLY, Sony's bread-and-butter top-shelf games are all produced IN-HOUSE, by 1st-Party Devs EXCLUSIVELY working within the framework of ONLY the PS3 console. The major exception being MGS4 (which Kojima says could certainly run on the 360). These 1st Party teams are keenly focused on programming for one specific set of hardware and constructing optimizations that ONLY concern the PS3. All the while working INTIMATELY with Sony in a way that MS's 3rd Party Devs are not. The point is, given Naughty Dog's true exclusivity vs. a multi-plat developer like Epic, it's no wonder the PS3 exclusives are a more tailored experience. My point has always been that the hardware is similar enough that Naughty Dog could produce a game of Uncharted 2 quality on 360 hardware if given the opportunity or circumstance: 1) the Xenon's cores are based on the same architecture as the Cell's PPE and 2) the Xenos has an edge at handling graphics, on the hardware side, than the RSX -- These are easily confirmable statements, hell, most of it is written in the very fact-sheets and data-sites YOU posted!

But, let's go back, one last time, to "big bad MS throwing money around to gobble up IP": Yeah, it irritates me that MS snatched up Remedy's Alan Wake with a fat payoff, but Sony did the SAME thing for it's upcoming "exclusive" Heavy Rain (remember when Quantic Dream's David cage was gushing about using PC Physics hardware before Sony bought the whole project? yeah...)

>> "turn 10 1st party ms games studios, why is it that forza 3 runs at a lower native resolution than gt5:prologue ? I wont get into the lighting etc (also better in gt5:p) .."

*sighs* So, now you're down to one game? Does that really make you happy? By your logic, then, the entire supremacy of this generation hinges on the native resolution of one title? Okay, fine. You win. I'm done. You've so cleverly thwarted me with the best evidence. I am lost. Incidentally, who has better "lighting etc" is arguable... This is a highly subjective area, but it's worth a link anyway: [http://www.gameswire.net/screenshots/forza-motorsport-3-better-than-gt5p-after-all_179.html]


>> "thanks for providing absolutely no evidence to back up any of your rants you massive microsoft fanboy you.."

This from the person who started all of this with a massive, factually errant fanboy rant on page one... This from the person who swore GOW3 was native 1080P --and offered as evidence for the claim, *LAUGHING* the fact that the GOW3 Demo was on his/her PS3 harddrive-- before being smacked down with written proof to the contrary...This comin' from the person who doesn't even understand that 1080P support on a game with a native 720P resolution requires upscaling... This coming from the person who doesn't even realize the impact of memory partitioning on graphics RAM access, while posting links that solidify the need for workarounds for the conundrum... This coming from the person who posts PR data as fact and must, consequently, actually believe a NV47 based card clocked at 500MHz is capable of a theoretical peak of 1.8TFlops... This comin' from the absolute clown who posts a page full of PS3 1080P games, several of which also run at 1080P on 360, while conveniently ignoring the fact that many top-end games on the same page actually run at LOWER native resolutions on the PS3... This from the person who's lost so many arguments on a per-point basis, he/she is reduced to: "Oh Yeah!? Well.. Well... Show me a game that looks better then!!" the subjective, argumentative equivalent to "Well, Brand X is better because the advertisement I saw said so!"... This from the total imbecile who posts the same irrelevant self-quoted misinterpretations of his/her own posts as though they will carry more meaningful significance or polemical weight the fourth and fifth time they're re-established...

>> "Lost the battle and the war and yet you still keep coming back for more.."

Son, in this campaign, you're so lost in the fog of war, you can't even see that your army fled the field five weeks ago...

Wait! This can't be! PC gaming is dead, remember! heh heh heh

I'd be a dismissive arse (like you) if I didn't actually go to your sources and check out the links fully for myself... I even cranked the KZ2 comparison up to 720 so you wouldn't whine about me saying it was lo-res down the line...so... in response:

>> http://www.gametrailers.com/video/exclusive-chaos-god-of-war/61815

Nice... Whole lotta pre-rendering going on there... In-game screen are actually surprisingly sharp... I don't see any effects that a Xenos can't pull without processor help. This goes back to my earlier point about 1st vs 3rd party devs...

>> Show my a 360 game that looks better than this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69EBDlnDw2k

Whatever, dude, totally subjective.... I can just as easily say Mass Effect 2 totally hangs in that league, graphically, without any qualification...I'd also say, stylistically (and this is, I know, a very subjective point, but then, so is "show me a blah that looks better than, blah) ME2 looks BETTER than Uncharted 2

>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTvYPiEi4eU

And look how far UE3 has come since Gears 2... why don't we take your advice and see what future offerings bring?

"As for software rendering, let see what next year brings shall we ?"

Yes... let's...

>> Yes your original comment sounded like you really were joking, I can see that now ... ... .... ?

*dies laughing at your mind-numbing simplicity* Really, dude? You're gonna pull that out from, like, a month ago? No, I wasn't joking last month, or whenever I posted that. When I told you I was messin' with you I was talking specifically about the ribbing I gave you earlier this week... Christ... You really are a right funny b*stard...

>> By your own admission, the Joystiq comment system is lame,

*laughing* it is... but I notice you seriously seem to have more trouble posting than anyone I've ever seen in the bleeding forum!!

>> therefore it stands to reason that none of the posts I originally made were intended for you and that they were indeed intended for abi and it also stands to reason your very psychotic .. To quote you from earlier:

*guffaws* Who cares? You posted your original post for everyone, that's what I was initially responding to... So what if I responded to a post you made to Abi, Shanesh responded to a post I made to you, that's the nature of forums...


>> Again if you know the joystiq comment system is lame why was it so hard for you to accept that the post wasn't intended for you ?

Dude, that was a friggen month ago! Are you still so hurt from that? Awww... I'm sorry your soft bits are achey... Go get some ointment, okay? Not that any of that matters, because, honestly, all joking aside... you're still inept at posting.

And NONE of this has ANYTHING to do with you not having a clue about Cell vs Xenon, RSX vs Xenos, memory partioning vs unified memory access, 1st-party vs 3rd-party, lead platform performance differentials or what increased SPE burdening to equalize GPU performance means for the future of PS3 graphics processing in games.... So, stop trying to change the bloody subject.

You know, I really tried being nice last time around... but you're obviously out of your league here, so, gloves off, boy-o..

Insults a-plenty, this time... you've earned each one...

>> "in 2010 you say that the ps3 uses 96 mb of ram.. "

No, I effin' didn't...Quoting myself-

["It was reduced to 96MB (back in '07 and so it remained until late '09)"]

Then I said that Sony RECENTLY REDUCED it, and clarified by saying

["as of this past November/December"]

which is late 2009.

You need to go back to pre-school and learn how to read. Stop skimming my comments lookin' for gotchas... You blasted idiot.

>> "I provide a pdf document from a sony developer conference that shows that what you claim is complete bollocks.."

Read it again:
["SONY VERY RECENTLY REDUCED the OS memory "hoggery" to the 50MB level cited in your PDF (as of this past November/December) and they made a MASSIVE deal about it to devs and insiders (in fact, the very PDF you posted is part of that "new" PR data)." ]

There is nothing incorrect in my statement; I even told you where your source data came from! You're not even arguing against the right point! I already told you the support quotes from Carmack weren't even about the OS memory footprint (while i did find his statement about it rather amusing) but about the MEMORY PARTITIONING and the UNDER-PERFORMING RSX!

>> "You then say you were quoting Carmack.."

I WAS! YOU FRICKEN DOLT! Again, for the reading impaired:

["Microsoft extracts 32 megs for their system stuff and Sony takes 96. That's a big deal because the PS3 is already partitioned memory where the 360 is 512 megs of unified and on the PS3 is 256 of video, 256 of memory minus 96 for their system...stuff. Stuff is not the first thing that came to my mind there."] - JOHN CARMACK

I also explained to you that when Carmack said this, Sony had not yet reduced the OS footprint to 50MB yet... but that none of that was relevant to the point I was making about PARTITIONED MEMORY... YOU COMPLETE GIT.

>> "You used the 96 mb of ram to try and back up your stupid ridiculous claim that and I quote:"

"At the end of the day, the higher graphics ram and faster GPU of the 360 equalize any *potential* advantages the 7 SPEs might give under most computational circumstances in current gen games"

My quote was a conclusion I delivered PRIOR to posting the Carmack quote!! So, no, I didn't use the Carmack quote to back up that claim. Stop trying to cherry-pick my quotes out of order and out of context to validate your nonsense, you imbecile. And my conclusion is still correct! Sony is making up for DEFICIENCIES and SHORT-COMINGS in its GPU architecture by siphoning SPE processing! SONY EVEN SAYS THAT USING SPEs TO BOOST RSX PERFORMANCE WAS THEIR INTENTION! (in that lengthy PS3 tech page you posted days ago, but obviously didn't even bother to read, you half-wit) The SPEs are being used to give the PS3s RSX a boost BECAUSE THE RSX IS UNDERPOWERED AND REQUIRES HELP FROM THE CELL JUST SO IT CAN COMPETE ON EQUAL FOOTING WITH THE XENOS ALONE! I've been saying that all along! My point remains unchallenged and correct! You absolute wreck of a pathetically poor excuse for a thought-capable being.

>> "Which is complete rubbish because nothing is faster on the 360"

You are a complete and total buffoon... The Xenos (a precursor to the R600) is basically a step UP from a Radeon x1900xt. It has a unified shading architecture. It has a dedicated buffer die. It has a hardware tessellation capabilities. It's a lead-in to the HD2000/3000 generation. I've already explained this. You either aren't reading because A) you refuse to acknowledge what exposes your ignorance or B) you're a completely illiterate moron who is incapable of putting together the letters and numbers right in front of your eyes. The 360 GPU IS more powerful (faster) than the PS3's RSX (NV47), which is actually a step DOWN from a 7800GTX. You clearly don't have any idea what you're talking about. Go away, kid. Just go away.

>> "and it doesnt have higher graphics ram.."

Again, you're not even following what DEVELOPERS and YOUR OWN SOURCES have said. But let's talk strictly tech: The Xenos has complete access to the full 512MB of GDDR3 system memory. It also has access to the DRAM you mentioned. The partitioned memory structure of the PS3 limits the total ram access of the RSX to 256MB. Even when accounting for system memory usage and OS footprints, the Xenos has access to nearly twice the video RAM of the RSX, giving the Xenos a substantial edge in terms of texture clarity, texture loading speed, better processing of bump maps, light maps, etc. Didn't you ever wonder why cross-platform games looked so much better on the 360 for so long?

>> "End of story.. No matter how you try to squirm your way around it only shows your full of rubbish.. You sound like a spineless politician you cant admit to being wrong,"


Um... you haven't yet proved anything I've said wrong... what's particularly sad, is that you're apparently too intellectually challenged to understand that fact...

>> "all you can do is try and spin the conversation and change it.."

I'm not the one misapplying arguments, building straw-men and refusing to actually read the opponent's point of view before rushing to correct... You utter numbskull....

>> "Provide one bit of real fact to back up your comments, provide one current valid source to back up your statements.."

I ALREADY HAVE! Plenty of times! I've even given you the courtesy of going through my points again and showing you where your so-called logic as unsound (or just plain cack) But, it's evident to me, now, that you're not even reading my bloody posts! You're not following the conclusions through, you're simply a raging fankid with no sense whatsoever.

And posting lo-res YouTube videos of KZ2, a game I've already granted a point-by-point dismissal in earlier posts? Not to mention the fact that your videos ignore one of my primary points about 1st party vs 3rd party development?? Cherry evidence choice there, you mindless twig.

Dude... you seriously need to calm down *laughing* I was so obviously effin' with you, I know the comment system is lame...but i appreciate you getting all defensive about the jab...now I know I'm gettin' under yer skin good'n proper... heh heh heh

Quite capable of dishing out, but not very good at taking, it seems...

Anyhow, feel free to respond to the full reply I posted earlier. But, seriously? How about we just stop all of this... Neither of us are getting anywhere; we're bringing nothing new to the table, and all this back and forth really amounts to:

A) You are a PS3 diehard and will forever be convinced of its supremacy. Nothing I say to you will sway you otherwise because you think I don't know as much as you; and that I'm a 360 fanboy. Between an article about software based AA, a handful of 1080P titles, reported theoretical might, and possibly BluRay, you are firmly assured that PS3 dominates the current generational landscape, will ultimately "win" the console war and will set the tone for the future of console development.

B) I am a PC diehard and couldn't really care less. I like pissing on the notion that PS3 is so great primarily because personal experience, statements developers I trust, and a working knowledge of computer-based hardware prove to me that, as novel as the console is, it is tremendously over-hyped. All the PR has turned out to be overblown, at best, or patently false, at worst: 1080P @ 60FPS is not the gaming standard, and is honestly no more a likely reality of this generation than it was five years ago (Not that such high standards really even matter in the console market: a great number of people frothing at the mouth and drawing lines in the sand over PS3 and 360 still have standard-res TVs!); the modest line-up of exclusives has yet to truly prove the dominance of the much lauded PS3 hardware (say what you will, but ME2's character models, complexity and animations outstrip --at the very least, rival-- those of PS3's reigning graphics champ Uncharted 2); PS Home failed to galvanize the media outlets and deliver new, exciting methods of user access to content and dramatically expand social networking avenues; BluRay won the HD physical-format war, but, despite "adoption rate" statistics, the truth is, most people are still buying DVDs by overwhelming margins, and digital distribution is poised to claim the future of media consumption; Cell has not revolutionized graphics, interactivity, or the basic principles of the gaming paradigm in any meaningful way... I could go on, but I'm sure you will just say something to the effect of: "You're blind! You can't see how PS3 has...blah blah blah," "That's just your opinion! blah blah blah" or "Give it time! PS3 is sure to... blah blah blah" But, at the end of it all, the prognostications are grim: all we're bein' shown for the remainder of the generation is a collection of throwback gimmicks: 3D gaming (which will require a new HD TV purchase for many with 60Hz LCDs, and possibly $200 shutter glasses too), and Wii-style motion controlling.

Heck, we're both fairly regular posters, I'm sure our paths will cross again and we can continue the discussion in a more meaningful thread...

Cheers

PS - Good luck with the MSc (assuming that's what you were really up to... heh, I know you were busy wringing your hands, tearin' out yer hair and prayin' to the full array of the Hellenic Pantheon to come to your aid with your next response. It's alright though... You don't have to play cool with me...)