oblivionvortex

"The ps3 OS uses 50MB system ram.. Again you make a huge mistake and then rant about complete nonsense."


STOP right there, first of all, I was not making a huge mistake, I was quoting a developer verbatim. Sony PS3's original Memory footprint was initially a whopping 120 megs! It was reduced to 96MB (back in '07 and so it remained until late '09) when Carmack made the quote I provided. SONY VERY RECENTLY REDUCED the OS memory "hoggery" to the 50MB level cited in your PDF (as of this past November/December) and they made a MASSIVE deal about it to devs and insiders (in fact, the very PDF you posted is part of that "new" PR data). So, no, it wasn't a mistake, you know less about this than I do. And none of that even matters because, even though the quote mentioned it, my point wasn't specifically about the OS footprint, but about the graphics/memory issues in general that still hold true: The PS3 GPU memory access is painfully reduced compared to the 360's. Regardless of the reductions in OS memory footprint, made since that Carmack quote, Sony STILL divides 512MB memory in partitions (294 to system 214 to graphics) that leave the RSX SHORT-CHANGED. You tool.


"Please read over your own comments,"

Stop telling me to read over my own effing comments! I know what I wrote! YOU need to bloody read them and stop repeating the same lame non-arguments over and over again.

"they are full of mistakes and full of factually incorrect statements."

No, they are not. You, on the other hand, have consistently called me "defensive" because you don't understand "tone," (or other literary techniques, for that matter), and have incessantly "supported" erroneous remarks with information you clearly don't comprehend. I went through your so-called evidence point-by-point in my last post, and shredded each piece. All you seem capable of is rewrite what you've written in your past 6 posts.

"In fact you have not provided one single bit of evidence to back up any of your claims"

*sighs* We really need to do this again? First off, I haven't really had to FIND any sources, since I've used most of yours against you, you've been my best evidence so far!

- I took you to the VERY ARTICLE YOU INITIALLY POSTED and showed you where they acknowledged out PS3's limited memory bandwidth

- In the same article, I pointed out that the authors noted several flaws in the AA scheme you touted as "leading" and "Advanced" (One of which being the brute force method of full screen AA application that adversely affects on-screen text, another being the fact that such a method appears limited to low-contrast video with limited movement).

- I took you to your OWN technical sources (from wikipedia, ibm.com, etc) and showed how you consistently misapplied them or misinterpreted their data, in your comments about CPU and GPU structure (Demonstrating that you really aren't even fit to be engaging in this discourse in the first place)

- I quoted an internationally renowned, globally esteemed developer --one you mentioned having respected-- who plainly discussed fundamental issues related to PS3's memory/graphics underperformance--even with the (recent) removal of the OS memory footprint from the equation, the basic architectural dilemma remains unchanged – you would know this if you weren’t so busy trying to play "gotcha" and actually had a clue.

- I also linked you to a forum where Sony's Head Media Manager dispelled the 1080P God of War 3 myth... you might've forgotten *cough*


"The only defence people like you have against the ps3 when compared to the 360 is a PC.. Comparing a PC to a Games Console, is outright nonsensical, which is what you basically resort to, because again you have nothing to argue about, you have no point to make.."

The only reason I even revealed my status as a PC gamer is that you kept "nonsensically" saying I was a 360 mark! I would LOVE to keep this argument between 360 and PS3-- as I've expressed before, I firmly believe these two console systems are --more or less-- on even ground this generation. I was TRYING to simply reign in all the overblown PS3 hype and hypocritical fanboyism you were spewing in your initial post, and instead of directly addressing the points, you hauled off and called me a 360 fanboy and structured all your future arguments around that assumption... Incidentally, I now find it appropriate to mention that um... well... you were wrong about that too... *coughs again*

"I have shown time and time again using normal hardware based anti aliasing methods the ps3 has done a better job for its exclusives."

No you have not! You've posted ONE... ONE... ONE article that extols ONE game's "innovative" approach and even while praising the technique, it wisely and objectively concludes that uncertainties concerning current shortcomings (the aforementioned screwy text, high-contrast ratios, the fast motion) might hinder the technique’s future widespread validity... All of which you completely blew past in your race to the top of the mountain to plant your "OMG PS3 RUL3Z! TEE HEE!" fanboy flag.

"From the original article I linked to it is fairly evident that software based anti aliasing is being implemented and the ps3 is leading the way on it, which again works in the ps3s favour.."

Talk about the blurring of opinion and fact! Wow! You say that like it's a fulfilled prophecy! Like software AA is bein' implemented en masse! 1) It isn't. The article posted info on clever methods used specifically in Saboteur, and the follow up article posted "POSSIBLE" implementations in a handful of other games. All told, it wasn't heralded as a 100% superior process, or the future of gaming. 2) If the SPEs are busy crankin' away on the AA, the day will, inevitably, come when a game has too much other processing going on, rendering software based AA a complete non-issue. You think they're gonna be able to use the SPEs to software AA (by fully redrawing entire screens exclusively via software, no less!) on a 60 FPS, fast-twitch action game, with KZ2 quality (or better) graphics, decent enemy AI scripts, and SPE supplemented lighting, all at 1080P?? You keep make statements implying the PS3 hardware is capable of such things-- and If you really believe that, you're simply the most naive gamer in the universe, and I have a Special edition N64 that plays Crysis I'd like to sell you.

An observation not specifically related to our 360/PS3 debate but an interesting side point: The graphics cards in modern PCs are more than capable of producing BETTER quality AA with hardware implementation. The Saboteur designers, however, do not take advantage of the superior graphics capabilities of the current DX10/11 hardware. The point is: the proliferation, or even wide-acceptance, of short-sighted exploits (I say short-sighted because the use of SPEs for AA will ultimately mean the reduction of their abilities to perform more important graphics offloading) and parlor-tricks used to compensate for ill-equipped hardware do not prove the superiority of a system.

"I have also shown that the ps3 has far more titles that have native 1080p support. Thus backing up all of my initial statements."

You sent me a link to a site that listed a bunch of games... most of the 1080P titles were the same on both platforms. There were a handful of PS3 1080P exclusives, and most of those were just updated old-arcade, PS2 or PS1 re-releases for PSN. I'm sorry, that does not prove any processing or graphical might. Moreover, though you took issue with me mocking Wipeout HD, there's really nothing impressive about a low-poly, low-textured, limited-AI "anti-grav" (TRANSLATION: no real world physics calculations required) racer. Sorry. Why do you think they can crank the visuals up to 1080P? There's nothing really impressive about ANY of the 1080P titles on either system. Why? Neither console can handle the demands. Tell you what. We'll make a deal here between God, man and forum. I'll believe that the PS3 is a superior platform when a respected cross-platform, high-quality, development house like Bethesda, id, Epic or BioWare says they've created a new visual spectacle of a game that CAN run at 1080P full-tilt on the PS3 and simply CAN'T the 360. Additionally, the list you sent me to showed more "top-shelf" games running BELOW THE 720P THRESHOLD on PS3 than 360. Shall I extrapolate THAT bit of empirically verifiable data to its logical end?

"All you have written is opinions, what might as well be called marketing nonsense."

Really? Are you really kidding me? The PR-meister? Not one conclusion I’ve delivered derives from marketing fluff (except, of course, the conclusions I made from your own sources). Quite unlike the marketing tool-kid posting from IBM's CELL PR site, Wikipedia's PR loaded PS3 Page or the fact that you just posted a PDF constructed from a SONY PR power-point slideshow as objective data... gimme a fricken break...

"You actually think you know a lot but seriously your pretty clueless,"

YOU'RE...YOU'RE! FIND AN EFFIN' APOSTROPHE KEY, PLEASE... FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY AND RIGHT ABOUT THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE... MEIN GOTT! Great, see what you've done?? Now you have me swearing in Deutsch!

Heh heh.. Actually, I probably don't know a lot, but it's so obvious I know a great more than you. It really makes me wonder why you keep trying so hard...I guess your ego just won't let you recognize the better man...*shrugs*


"you should really read some documents and research papers and understand the different platforms and understand the systems and architectures before deciding to start an argument with some one."

Did...did you just take the words right out my mouth??? Dude! Now you're stealing my points! You've some gall! The AUDACITY! heh heh heh. Really ironic... coming from you, of all people: from the person whose rabid fanboyism doesn't even allow him/her to realize the RSX is a technically inferior graphics part and that the proposed benefits of supplemental SPE offloading are nullified when complex AI and Physics are a requisite... ironic...

"This is why I said your so easy and you make laugh, just reread your ramblings and you will see time and time again you make massive mistakes and all of your comments are based on pretty wild assumptions."

Look here, DuckTales... I pointed out the problems in your points one-by-one, I took you to task on every issue; I didn't just generalize like a schoolboy and denigrate you without properly covering my bases. You tool. Heh heh heh.


"I am sure there are a tonnes of spelling and grammar mistakes in this"

Yes... yes there are...

"that you can pick through and sort out.."

My god, are you kidding? I don't have enough lifetimes for that sort of thing! As I said before, I'm too busy schooling you about tech to worry seriously about your subpar grammar.

*sigh* Another double post? I guess next you'll be saying this one wasn't meant for me either, it's to abi, right? Anyway... response posted above, continued at the old thread... You know... heh heh... You really need to get a hang on this whole "comments posting" thing. I could double post it if you like, would that make it easier for you to follow?

"I havent laughed so hard in so long"

Good to know you have a sense of humor about yourself...You make me laugh too! XD


"it took you how long to come up with that answer ? "

Please, son, I actually have a life on the weekends... As it happens, I was in three performances... And anyway, how long did it take you to finally respond to my first post, only to have you claim you hadn't seen it, after you'd previously posted two comments on the same page?


"I bet you were sitting there screwing for a few days,"

Actually, no, I popped off my response as soon as I had some time...

"because I got you hook line and sinker, by your own admission:

"I was actually the victim of myself--I made a slight typographical error" -- interwebz poster"

NO, you didn't have me at all. If you'd been paying attention to what I wrote, you would've realized it was a typo... I was talking about xenoN, not xenoS... Your point was still completely wrong-- not to mention disorganized (splattered all over the median like fresh roadkill): bouncing from a discussion about the inter-related CPU/GPU mechanics into the specifics of a GPU I wasn't even intentionally referring to by name.... you really have no idea... I swear, it almost pains me to keep responding to you, but it's so difficult to such resounding ignorance go unchallenged....


"FYI Pointing out grammar and spelling mistakes on a comment board of a gaming blog site is about the most sure way of admitting that you lost and you couldnt take it.."

No, pointing out grammar mistakes to a person who thinks he or she is so "in the know" is intended to make said person realize he or she should go back to grade school and stop overstepping his or her intellectual bounds...Trying to diminish the importance of syntax and structure in a debate that hinges on verbal expression is a confession of simple-mindedness.


" There there dont cry now, its ok, I know your ego got hurt and your hurting inside but its ok .. Take it like a man,"

Seriously? What's up with this nonsense? I've never once had my ego dented by your inane prattling-on... I told you, buddy, I'm still a god in my own mind! I've been coming back because A) I owe it to you to set you straight and B) it's vaguely comical read your posts, which are so chock of misinformation, yet written as though you actually have a clue.


"Before getting into any of the below I would like to state 1 simple fact, who actually cares ? Why is there this whole thread of xbox fanboys trying to belittle the ps3 ? Doesn't it clearly state that both versions will look exactly the same ? So what difference does anything else make?"

You've posted this, like, seven times now, I thought it unnecessary to hit for reasons that will become clear to you soon, but you keep bringing it back, like the conversational version of the unseen, fetid wretch reanimiated at the climax of "The Monkey's Paw"... so, allow me to address it once and for all:

- "Who really cares?" - Anyone who's invested hard earned money in the gen's tech cares, why are you even using this as a fall-back argument?? I mean, it's pretty obvious YOU care... which is why you posted that ages long reaction in the first place, and why you continue to return here to have yourself knocked around silly, in an attempt to disprove a person you THINK is an xbox fanboy...

- "Why is there this whole thread..." Look, this thread was about a major game-maker's decision to use a certain platform as the lead for a game's design, if this article revealed that the 360 had been chosen as lead platform, this very forum would be inundated with Sony fanboys complaining: "360 suxx! ITZ HOLDING BAK PS3. LOOK AT DEE EXKLUZIV3Z! Ps3 IS MY MOM!" (just like there are Sony fankids, even now, trying to convince themselves that Square cut a half-trillion corners on FFXIII because they honestly believe the 360 is so far inferior to PS3 that if both versions are the same, the game must've been dumbed down) That's the nature of fanboyism...it's prevalent on both sides and equally obnoxious. I was merely trying to dispel some of the hype -- you posted nearly a full page of stuff, some of it was good, but a lot of it was misinformed, and some of it was flat out wrong. You did it with an arrogant tone that was clearly adopted as a compensatory posture to mask your defensiveness (further evidenced by your continued --nearly incessant-- projection of "defensiveness" onto me). And I just happened to call you out on some of your BS, as did others before me.

- "Doesn't it clearly state that both versions will look exactly the same" ...and there's the rub! It says both versions would look exactly the same, and yet, in your defense of Sony PR, and all you, as a raging PS3 fanboy hold dear, you felt compelled to demonstrate that THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE CAPABILITIES OF THE SYSTEMS. Concluding, "who cares, and it doesn't matter" basically advising the xbox kids to just enjoy the visuals, only after you'd gone out of your way to try to prove how superior PS3 really was/is. So, I ask you your own effing question: What the hell does it matter if the games look identical EVEN WHEN PS3 IS THE LEAD PLATFORM? Why the hell do you keep trying to challenge me, if not for the empirically demonstrable fact that you're a defensive, mindless, fanatically hypocritical PS3 fanboy who has consistently not listened to your own advice since the inception of this argument?

- "So what difference does anything else make"If it doesn't make a difference, if, at the end of the day, all multi-platform games are basically equal and both systems have a decent list of exclusives, THEN WHY THE SMEG DO YOU KEEP RETURNING TO PROVE AN AIMLESS POINT. You made a point, then negated it by saying none of it meant anything, then tried to re-engage the point when you realized what a fool you'd made of yourself for all to see (*laughing* not that ANYONE is reading this now, 'cept us). I'm here to tell you three things, really: 1) your initial post was full of rubbish- go back to the basics, do a little research and stop throwing out experimental commentary and wikipedia links before getting a true working understanding the the industry you're trying to comment on, 2) I'm not an xbox mark, and I wish you'd stop acting like anyone who points out that the tires on the PS3 hype-mobile are a little low on air, was hired by microsft or is a part of some grand Gatesian conspiracy to discredit Sony (as shady as MS is, Sony has done more than enough this generation, on its own, to discredit itself) 3) if it really doesn't matter, if, when all is told, we're all stuck --for whatever reason-- with equivalent looking games across all platforms, so none of it really matters... THEN CHILL THE EFF OUT, HAVE A COKE, AND STFU!!


"Which can very easily be translated to:

PS3 1S DeH SUXKX0RZ XBOX360 RUl3z Y3h 17!!11!! The PC 1S Deh B3STEST 17!!!!!1! >> I R0XCZOR j00 SUXK0RZ.."

No, it couldn't be translated as such because I've never said the 360 ruled...I don't have any idea why you even keep bringing it up... You keep *TRYING* to make me a MS shill because you can't argue against any of my points.. You can't directly counter my knowledge of the systems, so you resort to misrepresenting me, trying to imply that my admission that I made a typo was critical in destabilizing my argument (This from the person who actually had to admit several statements concerning native resolution of a certain title were flat out wrong; and who has yet to admit failure in understanding the last three genrations of modern graphics, the necessity of higher memory bandwidth in advanced processing, or the design elements of the CPU you're trying to defend. Additionally, in the most absurd form of self-aggrandizement, you keep reposting the same, lame utterly inapplicable closing statement, as though repeating it enough will make it true. I swear, you think you've made a point with stinging wit and keen flourish, but have only managed to demonstrate that you can't even use BAD argument techniques properly! Oh, I get it... you have to repost that tired, poorly-crafted, worthless conclusion again because you're not able to understand what I've written! Okay, let me make it easy for you-

All your arguments "can very be easily translated to:"

"HUR DUR DUR. I HAVE NO WURKING NOLEGE UV TECK AT ALL. I BE CUMPLETELY STOOPID ABOUT GRAFIX AND COMPUTERZ. BUT THAT CANT STOP M3 CUZ PS3 IS D GODZ 4 EVA!! WIKIPEDIA SEZ SO!!! AND SONY IZ MY GURLFRIEND!!"

What a marvelous distillation of your entire methodology and perspective! I'm patting myself on the back for such well-stated brilliance!! Incidentally, I now have a far greater understand of your modus operandi...


"Thanks for once again proving my point, I cant believe how much crap you posted and how easily it can be summarised :)"

I can't believe you keep responding if you seriously think you've won the argument... You're the one who posted:

"You can write what ever nonsense you want now, I have said enough"

At this point, I'll say you've said too much...it's now abundantly clear you're a completely ill-supported mess.

"Your too easy.."

YOU'RE positively laughable...

Oh... Mass Effect 2 is positively fantastic BTW!

"Your coming across as a bit of a crazy delusional psycho - the post was not intended for you ."

First of all, in this instance, it's "you're," not "your"... Look up the difference, I'm far too busy schooling you in tech, and have precious little time to teach you the basics of the English language as well. Incidentally, the whole "I clearly haven't mastered third grade grammar yet I'll try to maintain an air of superiority" motif you're tying' to pull really isn't doin' it for me...

Second, wait...

*Skims ahead; laughs at your thorough attempts at meticulous fact-checking (which actually amounts to merely a dizzying stream of yet more misapplied, data; spattered with all the chaotic, unbridled ferocity of a Jackson Pollack painting--but utterly devoid of the artist’s comprehension, development, elegance or soul) while noting the rapid, nearly atavistic regression of both the quality and credulity of your arguments*

As your posts reach a screaming fever pitch and your increasingly erratic tone builds to a thunderous, nearly megalomanical apex... I'm forced to find it amusing that you refer to me coming off "as bit of a crazy delusional psycho"

"Read over your reply, and read over mine.. Do you come across as a tad defensive ?"

Em... no...

I was merely pointing out your gross misinterpretation of facts and your preposterous regurgitation of mind-numbingly stupid--and singularly unverifiable--PR blatherskite. I did so, naturally adopting a polemicist's stance--punctuated with an admittedly acerbic delivery--which was entirely appropriate to counter the haughty self-indulgent tone of your initial post.


"At the end of the day, the higher graphics ram and faster GPU of the 360 equalize any *potential* advantages the 7 SPEs might give under most computational circumstances in current gen games"

Actually, you almost had me there, you were, unfortunately, not quick enough on the uptake to seal the deal. I was actually the victim of myself--I made a slight typographical error... One you might've caught and corrected me about, if you actually knew anything about the CPU/Graphic architecture of either system apart from what you're able to glean in your cursory cherry-picking quick-reads of Wikipedia. When I was discussing PS3's 1 PPE and 7 SPEs verses 360s 3 PPEs, I was talking strictly about CPU architecture (xenoN, not xenoS). I was trying to get you to understand that whatever CPU processing advantages you think the PS3 has, in this gen’s games, are fabulously overstated. The processors in both systems are based on the same PowerPC R&D and are practically cousins (technologically speaking). I did bring up graphics, but only to add that, in addition to the PS3's processing prowess vs. 360 being exaggerated, any possible advantages PS3's SPE complemented CPU might theoretically have are greatly diminished (or rendered completely non-existent) by PS3's graphics bottleneck. As an example, one might build a computer with a top of the line 3+ Ghz Quad-Core Intel.. but if the system uses an integrated graphics solution with 256MB of dedicated RAM, it'd be shyte out of luck for running any decent titles. Same rules apply.


"except for the fact that the rsx is clocked @ 550Mhz and the Xenos is clocked at 500Mhz (some have it as both at 500Mhz) and the fact that the RSX has 256MB dedicated ram and shared access to the 256MB xdr ram (total 512MB) and the Xenos has shared access to 512 MB ram (shared with the cpu) .."

You really have no idea what you're on about... Your attempts at sourcing are something akin to a rhesus macaque pointing at the Q volume from an Encyclopedia Britannica set. You seem quite capable of acknowledging a reference exists, however, you don't seem endowed with the capacity to comprehend, apply or even recognize what data actually supports you. (Like when you mentioned having a copy of the GOW3 demo on your PS3 as though such a circumstance provided smoking-gun evidence of the game's native 1080P resolution -- it didn't, in case you weren't keeping up) The clock speeds are negligible in this case because of the varying nature of the graphics hardware in question. Remember when AMD Athlon processors were kicking the snot out of higher clocked Pentium 4's a few years ago? Hmm...mabye you weren't around then... if you had been, you wouldn't have posted something so brain-bogglingly silly. Further, if you don't get that RAM access is PRECISELY one of the PRIMARY reasons the RSX is the PS3's hindrance to supremacy... Well, instead of posting in forums, perhaps a better use of your time might be spent re-learning your alphabet, and how to tie your shoes, because you've clearly missed something fundamental in early childhood development. You mentioned admiring Carmack, so let me post his words for you; maybe they'll reach fertile ground where mine have yet to penetrate the thick, coarse surface:

"The [PS3's] rasteriser is just a little bit slower – no two ways about that."

As your own Wikipiedia source explains, RSX is basically an Nvidia Geforce 7800... the 360's XenoS ["is in many ways a precursor to R600"], which, since you're not in the know, competed against Nvidia's GeForce 8000/9000 line...

Now, let's talk about why the memory issue is so important:

Again, quoting Carmack: ["Microsoft extracts 32 megs for their system stuff and Sony takes 96. That's a big deal because the PS3 is already partitioned memory where the 360 is 512 megs of unified and on the PS3 is 256 of video, 256 of memory minus 96 for their system...stuff. Stuff is not the first thing that came to my mind there."]

Hell, the very article that started this whole exchange even stated that the PS3 was "running at a disadvantage in terms of bandwidth and memory" Which, for the unlearned (ie, you) generally manifests itself as reduced graphics performance potential.


"The spes are a lot more general purpose.. Read here for some good info about them:

http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/pa-celldmas/
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/pa-celldmas2/"

Umm...thanks... I know what the SPEs are capable of (better than you, it seems)... and as cool as they are, they're NOT capable of magically turning the near-equivalent of a GeForce 7800 with inadequate RAM into a GeForce 8800GT with twice the memory bandwidth...

"... Do I need to say anything further on this ? Seriously just hang your head down, put your tail between your legs and walk away .."

You should really heed your own advice... Besides, I have ego for days, Sonny Jim, you couldn't put a dent in my over-inflated sphere of self worth if you actually were right for once... For the record, you haven't been... Keep trying, though...

"as for gow3 -- it takes balls to admit to being wrong, but even then the wording is very important.. Native 720p and 1080 support -- doesnt say anything about scaling does it ?"

Okay, let me try to make this simple for your kindergarten-level intellect. *sigh* If the game has 1080P support. But its native resolution is 720P. The system has to... wait for it... here it comes... UPSCALE the image to match the higher resolution. You're out of your league here, kid, you don't even know the concepts behind the terms you're trying to use as the foundations for your arguments!

"You think wipe out is equivalent to solitaire ? "

Now I have to explain literary techniques to you too??! It's called HYPERBOLE... look it up.

Criminy...next I'll have to explain to what sarcasm is too, right?

You're so very smart!

"Your points are just outright asinine."

I suppose you think casual usage of polysyllabic insults legitimizes your attacks? Strengthens your arguments? Truly debases my statements? They mocked Copernicus, you know. They called Salvador Dali a mad man.

*sighs* Absolutely horrible examples. Valve isn't pushing any graphical boundaries--they haven't since they initially demoed Source. Not a criticism: Valve makes great games, but they certainly haven't been trying to redefine graphical frontiers since Half-Life 2, really. Sure, they've added some HDR here or there, kicked out a few up-sampled textures, maybe tossed in a few polys to the character models, but they surely haven't been trying to tax graphics hardware or out-Crysis Crytek. Epic WAS into pushing the limits, but they went multi-platform and pretty much stopped specializing for a given set of hardware. Besides, they were never on Micrsoft's dole, owned or a subsidiary. And no, Unreal Engine 3 is NOT optimized for 360 the way Naughty Dog and Guerilla's code is geared for PS3 architecture. Hello! UE3 is a MULTIPLATFORM engine, it's designed to fit a comfortable range across both leading console and mainstream PC specs. Are you plain daft?

You know, you keep bringing up KZ2 like it's Jehovah's answer to graphics, and, I have to say, it's too slow, 30FPS is not a desirable speed for an FPS that doesn't even look a 10th as realistic as Crysis. Moreover, the textures are downright crap. True, I'm biased, I've been playing FPSs since Catacombs 3D... but KZ2 doesn't impress me in the least. I actually don't like the Halo trilogy either... but it's certainly more "Fun" for casual, fast-paced, multiplayer action...

"Look at the praise thrown on practically every ps3 exclusive in 2009, then come back to me and tell me Sony hasn't done it right.."

They love Jerry Lewis in France, does that make him funny?

Look, I read reviews, I cherish informed buying decision-making...but, you know what? I also have my own brain and don't have to depend on media hype to help me determine whether a platform is exceptional or not. In fact, while we're at it, let's run down a few of those precious PS3 exclusives that keep being brought up as Godsend games:

- MSG4 - Pretty...And, if you desperately enjoy being forced to endure 45 minute (and longer) non-interactive, cutscenes after ever 2 minutes of gameplay, not at all a bad experience! Cripes, even talk-laden exposition-heavy BioWare titles offer the player branching dialogue choices for their trouble! Although the textures of the game are better than most console fare, they're still held back by the lack of graphics memory (which is why Blu-Ray is useless for storing hi-res textures: what's the point of loading the disc with a shyte-ton of textures that the system doesn't have the bandwidth to process!?)

- Little Big Planet - Great. In the same way that the Wii games that most hardcore PS3ers criticize are.

- inFamous - Admittedly brighter and more colorful than its cross platform rival Prototype. But Prototype positively SCHOOLS inFamous in gameplay, design, free roaming mechanics, and overall execution.

- KillZone 2 - Excited about it at first. Played it for about a day. Basically a first-person Gears of War rip-off. Gorgeous cut-scenes, marvelous animations: Reduced to mediocrity when compared against a legion of far better FPSs available on PC for years. Blah textures, muddy colors, complete with blurry visuals FX that overcompensate for lack of decent AA. Personal Overall Verdict: Meh.

- Valkyria Chronicals - Neat... a neutered TBS/RPG hybrid, just what I wanted. Again, pretty. Certainly not taxing that massive Cell Processing power, though, is it?

- Uncharted - Ahhh...Tomb Raider meets Max Payne! Splendid. Neat graphics? For its time, but nothing new really brought to the table.

- Uncharted 2 - Finally, something to write home about! I really have no complaints about this one. So, at least PS3 has ONE keen mega-exclusive... whew!

You at least have Heavy Rain (a PC project intercepted by Sony money), God of War 3 (should be fun, but won't be nearly as ultra high spec as they PROMISED in the PR campaigns) and GT5 (if it ever comes out, and IF it's only half as good as GRiD, yeah... I said it... heh heh heh)

So, here's how we're going to end this. Comin' in here and deconstructing your posts is child's play. Besides, it's really eating into the time I could be spending playing games... Incidentally Mass Effect 2 is out today, and I have to go snag a copy. Maybe I'll let you borrow it when you get a decent PC... Anyhow, it's fairly apparent you don't quite have the skill or knowledge to actually think outside a thin, tight, SONY PR bubble: which is why you simply post an endless series of specs and Wikipedia links like they're proper sources--all the while, failing to understand what the tech data actually means, where the flaws in your "proof of concept" models exist, and what the notion of "console supremacy" even means for this generation. For example, Sony touts a 1.8 TFlop theoretical peak for the RSX *explodes into a resounding, hearty guffaw*. If you believe that, you don't know a single thing about the NV47's capabilities, or what is possible for a GeForce-7800-era graphics processor. And, it's truly pointless to argue with someone so ill-informed.

"That was not intended for you at all.. It was for abi on the first page.."

Right... which is precisely why you added it as a comment on the last page, in addition to the abi page AND added some more links as well.... You posted it TWICE, clearly with the intention of having me read it, with supplemented "proof"... too bad your "evidence" had not a leg to stand on...

"Your comment and your eagerness to try and disprove and mock everything I have written only proves you to be a microsoft tool"

*laughs mockingly* no...I'm eager to mock and disprove everything you've said because you've made so many incorrect assumptions, have misapplied data, created straw men arguments, filled your posts with red-herrings, come off as a pompous, misinformed fool, chocked each post with a condescending tone and then demonstrated the galling audacity to complain about the ego trips of others!

"....as soon as you guys get whacked with the truth about the 360 you jump onto the im "a pc" bandwagon, to cover up the inherent weaknesses and to give your self another angle to argue from moving the discussion out of the realms of consoles into general computing.. "

You know what, I was trying to be gracious... I'm a PC gamer, okay, I have two rigs and a gaming lap top, I don't even OWN a 360... (although I do love sportin' the wireless 360 controllers for playin' all these console ports on my superior gaming machines). When I DO play console games, I play my friends'... That said, I was NEVER talking about general computing! YOU POSTED a fricken article about SOFTWARE AA techniques and horrendously misapplied it as a proof text for the superiority of the platform, then you posted a bit of suspect PR and boisterously lauded it as evidence of another's ignorance. The only one changing argument angles around here, it's you...

You sit there and talk about open mindedness but neglected to catch the nuances of the article, the whole idea of using more processing power for visuals is asinine in a world where a specialized video card erases the need for upper-level programming to produce half-assed solutions. Even while praising the ingenuity and quality of the methods of AA developed for Saboteur, the article points out the inelegance and future inefficiency of an AA solution that requires the reprocessing of entire screens and low-contrast limited-motion imagery!

" Which processor do you think would be better equiped to handle the job ? -- Ask yourself these questions then come back to me with your tail between your legs ... the [PS3] cpu is both cpu + gpu and then there is the gpu"

You really have no idea what you're on about... First of all, if you knew anything about the Cell architecture, you'd know it's not a CPU + a GPU... I really don't have time to argue with someone who is clearly so ignorant, he/she doesn't even know what the terms of the discussion are. Let's go back to basics, okay? First off, Microsoft is a right shady company and snatched most of the cell tech from IBM while Sony was doin' R&D on the processor... The 360's Xenos is basically 3 modified Cell PPE's. The PS3 Cell, is ONE PPE and 7 SPEs, which are *LIKE* programmable shaders on a graphics card. At the end of the day, the higher graphics ram and faster GPU of the 360 equalize any *potential* advantages the 7 SPEs might give under most computational circumstances in current gen games. Period. End of story. Sorry to disappoint you, no tail between my legs. To answer the question: I'm with Kojima... "there's really no difference between the [PS3 or 360]."

"I know it hurts, but claiming all native 1080p games on the ps3 as crap, because well you say so is just idiotic.. They still run at native 1080p.."

My point is that none of the touted titles really demonstrate any system based prowess, I can run effin' solitaire or minesweeper at 4096 X 2048 all day long and it doesn't mean anything in terms of revolutionary HD gaming. Posting that list and saying "oh look, more 1080 games on PS3, therefore it's superior" is just as stupid as me taking that same list and saying "oh look, many more HIGH QUALITY games running at 720 (while the PS3 versions sit below standard HD) AND more games with better AA support, therefore it's superior". And, as I've already said, most of the 1080 games on that PS3 list are upscaled last gen games released to PSN... 360's had upscaled 1080P support on top games since day one... so, you have no point at all...

Look, I was merely point out that having a development company 100% exclusively in your pocket is far more advantageous to producing high quality products for the platform. You are apparently to dense to understand the concept. Epic is multiplatform, as Bungie is now. So what if they worked for Microsoft? IF they're not producing 100% exclusive 360 enhanced products, working closely with MS engineers, solely on MS equipment, they aren't doing what Naughty Dog and Guerilla are doing for Sony and PS3... For Example: Epic COULD be programming games exclusively for PC hardware that DWARFS the graphics, AI, and Physics processing capabilities of BOTH consoles, but THEY'RE NOT, because they're programming for the "lowest console denominator," thereby sacrificing any potential optimizations and technical advancements on the PC platform. You really don't seem to understand anything... and your ignorance is both tiring and increasingly grating...Stop twisting the discussion points to suit your fallacious counter-arguments...

"As for God of War 3 , From all that I had read up till now the game was touted as
1080p native."

And that's exactly my point, you run around telling people to do research and if you'd done a cursory bit yourself, you would have known you were wrong before you posted your so-called evidence. Anyone with any sense could have told you GOW3 COULDN'T be done at 1080P native when it's MORE than apparent both consoles are taxed out pushin' 720P with all options on the table.

"He doesnt say anything about scaling - he only says native 720p with 1080 support.."

Are you completely daft??!?!???! if the NATIVE RESOLUTION is 720P what the hell do you think the 1080P support is?!? I'd hate to call you a utter tool.. but you're seriously cruisin' for it...

"This could imply scaling, but it doesnt state that as fact.."

*sigh* sorry...you're an utter tool.

"If it is @720p well I apologise,"

Apology accepted... can we be friends now? :D

"obviously I believed the marketing and the rest of the comments from e3"

I know... curse of the fanboy... it's a syndrome these days...

And look, please, don't go tellin' me about default resolutions of flagship titles. The point is, YOU brought up 1080P with the GOW3 nonsense, I shot that down, even before I found the Rubenstein post, every indicator on the planet and a half teaspoon of common sense should have told you a full-tilt 60FPS 1080P GOW3 was a complete pipedream.... And, as you erroneously assumed, I'm NOT a 360 mark... I'm a PC gamer... I only play my games at 1920x1200 (higher than HD, on the 47" for older stuff) 1680 x 1050 (capped because the HD4870 is only plugged into a 22" monitor), or 1440 x 900 (with newer games on the 47", since it's jacked to an HD3870) so all this talk about systems struggling to hack out 2x MSAA at 720P is really meaningless to me... Cheers...

"http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/news/2007/10/ps3_supercomputer"

*sighs* apples and oranges. Try running a 32-bit OS at full speed on a graphics card without a built-in x86 instruction set.

"Ultimately you havent really proven anything,"

Nor have you, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree...

Sorry, don't mean to be a complete arse.. but with your condescending tone and absolute failure to follow your own advice, you've totally earned this one!

Here you go:

>>Jeff Rubenstein, the Social Media Manager of SCEA, confirmed on the comment section of the Playstation.Blog that God of War III will run natively at 720p with 1080p upscaling support.

[http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-6894-Video-Game-News-Examiner~y2010m1d18-God-of-War-III-to-run-on-720p-natively-with-variable-frame-rate]

UPSCALING...

And there you have it... it won't be 1080P native...from the horse's mouth.

And the best part is, if you follow the link through to the forum, after Jeff Rubenstein explains that the game is only UPSCALED to 1080 and is 720P native, the fankid clowns in the forum still keep asking "So... uh... duh... like... so the game's 1080P right?? the screenshots r like 1080, so it's 1080, right??" like they can't accept it, comprehend it, or simply can't read...We should really be doing a study on the effects of SONY PR hype on the modern brain...

Let me leave you with some important advice I once heard: "...do a little bit of research before you post ignorance.." Anyway, you were saying?

"God Of War 3 is native 1080p and yes the framerate is variable so do a little bit of research before you post ignorance.."

Wow...I clearly said: "Try finding a source outside of Wikipedia or any hearsay and speculative posts from back in '08 to back up the 1080P GOW3 claim."

You posted 3 links:

Link 1 was an N4G article that EXPLICITLY states: "Although it is widely speculated, NO OFFICIAL SOURCES HAVE ACTUALLY CONFIRMED THAT THE GAME IS RENDERED AT 1080P... UNCONFIRMED

Link 2 was Wikipedia.... UNCONFIRMED...

Link 3 sources data from FEBRUARY OF '09, it's the same speculative list from late '08: OUT DATED and UNCONFIRMED. It's nearly Feb of 2010, you mean to tell me in almost a FULL YEAR the SONY PR machine hasn't had time to OFFICIALLY confirm some NEW specs confirming 1080P GOW3??

And don't post me any screenshots...screenshots can be from UPSCALED, not NATIVE sources.

Try doin' a bit of reading before you go makin' yourself look like an illiterate tool...

@Shanesh - First of all, I'm not serious at all, I'm doin' all of this for a bit of a laugh and the occasional hearty chuckle. I'm not bein' hostile, I'm merely pointing out that the fouteen page post McDuck made contained a number of false premises. He came to a rather fanboyish conclusion at the end and now his ilk are upvoting the post and championing his words like they were etched on twin stone tablets and carried down from Mout Horeb.

Second, you presume far too much... the 360 is NOT my console... for the record, I play all systems (I'm REALLY lookin' forward to Heavy Rain, in fact), but I'm primarily a PC gamer, if you must know. I see strengths and weaknesses across all the platforms (though the PC is clearly superior in most respects ;)), If I seem hostile, it might just be because I'm so annoyed with all the PS3 hype.. there's so much overstatement involved every time someone brings up the platform. It's a decent platform, it has many strengths, but it's not the Son of Zeus, okay? It has many many problems (horrible memory limitations, crippled gfx system, cleverly designed but poorly implemented Cell, increased time and cost for developers, just to name a few) and it's certainly not the godsend that will usher in a new era of gaming.

Third, I suspect you WOULD see better if MS had in-house access to the same talented, practically first-party development teams Sony has on its payroll. Who do they have now? Bungie was onboard back-when, but they broke free in '07. It's all about who specializes in what, in-house. For example, MS has yet to drop anything as graphically technical as Uncharted 2, but that doesn't mean it's not possible for the system to do it. Sony has a Naughty Dog it its pocket, they didn't have a Bungie, which is why PS3 has yet to offer an FPS shooter experience to rival the Halo series.

"I'm not familiar with 1080p at all, but his point isn't about the games, its about how the Ps3 can handle 1080p. "

The discussion wasn't even really ABOUT 1080P, it was about Anti-Aliasing techniques!! The article McDuck posted was really about the new clever programming techniques that offload AA onto Cell's SPEs instead of relying on traditional, graphics hardware based Anti-Aliasing solutions. The whole reason programmers are getting so creative with SPE usage is because THEY HAVE TO-- OTHERWISE THE PS3 WOULD HAVE POOR ANTI-ALIAS IMPLEMENTATION OR NONE AT ALL! It's a case of turning lemons (crippled graphics hardware) into lemonade (use the specialization ability of the cell to compensate and deliver nice results)

The comment about 1080P, tacked on by McDuck, is silly because the PS3 is really no better at handling full-bore, system-smashing 1080P titles, with quality AI, at 60FPS than the 360 is-- despite Cell's proposed prowess...Hell, it certainly won't be pushing much 1080P if the SPEs are TOO BUSY ANTI-ALIASING THE FRIGGEN GRAPHICS!!

@McDUCK (Scrooged) -

"Before getting into any of the below I would like to state 1 simple fact, who actually cares ? ... Doesn't it clearly state that both versions will look exactly the same ? So what difference does anything else make ? “

First off-- the point you’re missing is that, 360 has no problems matching the quality and speed of games built from the ground up using a PS3 as the lead machine. Basically, contrary to what the Sony hype machine has been churning out for years, the 360 is more than capable of keeping up with PS3-centric programming. Moreover, it would seem Microsoft’s box is much better at handling code first optimized for PS3 than the PS3 is at keeping up with 360-centric, xbox-first programming!

Further, the amount of resources used to develop ways to “exploit” PS3 tech – to find new tricks to “take advantage of” the PS3 hardware – all done just to make current games look and play “just as good” as their 360 counterparts COULD have been put toward designing more revolutionary forms of games and gameplay.

“Anything above 620p and the daughter card is basically useless, the 10MB edram is just too small and cant cope, so games at true 720p the 360 has to drop MSAA.”

This is simply a silly statement to make given that there ARE native 720P X360 games that use MSAA. However, when facing a hardware wall, some 360 developers DO opt to use software solutions and do so without necessitating Cell instructions, but rather at the cost of the additional memory available to the 360s graphics architechture. The use of software-based AA solutions isn’t limited to cell, PS3 programmers do not have a market corndered on such techniques. The reason you’re seeing this type of programming developing so much more rapidly on the PS3 is not due to any inherent "uniqueness" of the platform, but rather developers have been FORCED to unload graphics processing onto the Cell BECAUSE the RSX is underpowered AND is crippled by reduced available dedicated memory… didn’t you read your own bloody article? -- [From the article you posted: “For the PlayStation 3, running at a disadvantage in terms of bandwidth and memory, handling anti-aliasing is more difficult - hence this element being cut down in so many of the cross-platform games Digital Foundry looks at for the Face-Off comparison pieces.”] Mind you, increased use of these techniques began, not as a demonstration of processing superiority, but to overcome graphical inferiority.


"Also have you wondered why there are so much more actual 1080p games on the ps3?"

Wipeout HD? Word Series of Poker 2008? Ridge Racer 7 Demo?? hardly an impressive catalog... Fact is, there are precious few fully 1080P games for either system. And the few that exist are primarily upscaled last gen remakes or games that offer little to tax current gen hardware (which is why they can afford to run at such higher resolutions)

"-- God of War 3 will be actual 1080p."

You're competely out of your mind if you think GOW3 will be 1080P native... completely... Try finding a source outside of Wikipedia or any hearsay and speculative posts from back in '08 to back up the 1080P GOW3 claim...

"Why do the 360 fanboys get so rabid in these matters ? Just accept the simple facts, it could never pull off killzone 2 and it could never pull off uncharted 1 & 2, the ps3 is the more advanced of the two and that has been obvious from day 1."

Riiight... just like it could never have pulled off FFXIII? or MSG4 even after the lead designer said the platforms were basically the same? Just like the PS3 is struggling to pull more than 30FPS in Rage, forcing Carmack and team id valuable development time just to bring the cripple graphics/memory architechture up to snuff? Keep dreamin' kid...

Also the most shocking of it all is that this article is from Eurogamer, if you read the veiled message"

There IS no veiled message, other than what you're reading into it... the article basically focuses on the POTENTIAL of the process and concludes (not thinly veiled, but OVERTLY): ["I still think the technique has promise, especially in games that don't have as much small-scale aliasing sources. But the importance of MSAA remains as you really want sub-pixel rendering to stably improve on small-scale aliasing in moving pictures..."]

Please... give it a rest, already... "20xx is going to be the year Sony makes a turnaround!" has been the oft repeated fankid mantra since 2006--you remember: Back when PS3 was going to dominate worldwide hardware sales and destroy the opposition?

The system is destined to remain dead last throughout its cycle: PS3 trails the 360 by nearly 8 million units worldwide. 2009 was considered a landmark year for the PS3, providing record sales of 4.5 million systems sold, all year. Translation: If 2010 is the most stellar year in PS3 history, it still won't catch 360 -- even if Ballmer and Co. fail to ship a single xbox unit through the entirety of next year!

And, in case you had't noticed, Sony HAS been doing aggressive marketing... REALLY aggressive... (and you know what? kudos to them, some of it has actually been clever) but the fact remains: even with all the marketing, the chugging PR bullet train and the endless string of promises, the PS3 failed to capitalize, has not provided Sony with profits OR market share, and has absolutely STRUGGLED to outsell its closest competitor. And, even when it (finally) managed to (barely) eke out a (potentially pyrrhic) victory, it was only capable of sustaining the lead for a meager three months (during one of which, it tanked against the xbox in the US). Mind you, all of this occurred only after a massive price drop, an unparalleled marketing blitz, a refreshed hardware offering and the release of the console's single most critically acclaimed and overtly-hyped exclusive of the year *cough cough* Uncharted 2 *cough*