OutThere

@(Unverified) Here again we are stuck with qualifying some types of gameplay as superior to others. Let's put it another way, using the artistic example. Say there are two guys, one who paints, one who plays music. The guy that paints thinks he's the better artist because he creates from nothing, and has a substantial piece when he's done he can sell for money. And maybe he only paints for an hour or two a day, but it's "hard". He's the "real" artist and feels he can look down on musicians who just practice 5 or 6 hours a day, end up with nothing but some ephemeral notes that vanish in the air, and just use somebody else's notes anyway. In whose view is the painter superior to the musician?

If you want to call games art, then those that play them should be considered in the same light. Instead, most conversations around this are more sports or war oriented. People play sports to win and if you don't win you're a loser. Raiding has been defined as "winning". So those who do not raid are by definition losers.

One engages in art to express oneself, for the emotional satisfaction, and for a creative outlet. Not to "win". Not to call others who engage in art but differently "losers" because they aren't hardcore enough to engage in the winning activity.

Your view may be more apt than you are allowing it to be because you are not taking it to its natural conclusion but insist that the art that the devs produced be played by winners and losers instead of artists.

And yes, there are obviously some people who have tremendous talent and are great artists, regardless of their discipline. But do you tell your kid when she comes home with a drawing. "Ya, well, it's not Picasso, but then you're a casual, aren't you?"

After reading lengthy forum posts for a number of games over the years related to this topic, it seems to me that for many hardcore is equal to raider. And casual is equal to everyone else. The importance of the distinction is, as far as I can tell, that raiders feel entitled to special treatment because they are more deserving because they are hardcore. Whereas "other" players don't deserve the coolest goodies because they are not playing the game to its fullest. That is, they are casual. Hardcore players use this argument to beat the drum against any relaxing of raider content or drops so that they can retain their cache.

I've essentially stopped playing MMOs that define end-game as raid or group-content only simply because I am tired of having content, gear, and crafting mats gated behind activities that few participate in. LOTRO is particularly wedded to this design style and after years of putting up with being regarded as a second-class player, a casual, and reading ad naseum how oh-so-very deserving raiders were because they really put in so much more effort into the game than "casuals," I've moved on. The silly thing is that I raided as much as I could, just not with the min/max dedication of a hardcore player and I typically logged 40 hours a week playing LOTRO at the height of my enthusiasm.

So I've come to think that it may not be hours spent so much as attitude that makes one casual.

@(Unverified) I agree with you on this. Alganon is great fun, has a decent crafting system, excellent lore, and distinctive factions. Only reason I am not playing it any more is that when they added PvP they made your home city a PvP zone. Consequently, every time you go to the bank, you get PvP flagged. Since it is open world PvP if you are flagged I thought this was dumb. But not getting ganked while questing is my personal preference. The game is otherwise truly underrated.

@Faction 3

Yup, Path of Exile is amazing. The skill system is brilliantly designed. The atmosphere does Diablo one better. And the art direction and animations (OMG, wavelets and foam on the beaches) are superb. While D3 may sell a gazillion copies, PoE will be the sleeper hit.

Rift. You know it is just getting better and more interesting.

My thoughts on others:

WoW, almost my first choice, but end game gear chasing spoils it and the WoW I remember doesn't exist any more.

LOTRO, almost my first choice, but not sure if I'd have a credit card on that island.

AoC, not really my first choice, but an intriguing possibility, certainly getting combat down and trying to figure out the skill tree would be absorbing.

Guild Wars, not my first choice either. I'm alone on an island, don't think I want to play a game where I'm alone in an instance.

GW2, if this were out, it would be my first choice, but since we don't talk about Fight Club, I'll leave it at that.

SWTOR, art design is too depressing, and I want happiness alone on that island.

EQII, might actually make a fairly good first choice, since I've only played it enough to know that it is enjoyable and don't know enough about it not to like it.

DDO, also an intriguing possibility. I've played this game, not only is it hard to master, it is hard to get into if you aren't a D&D fan, but that means there's untold re-rolls of classes while I try to figure out what skills are actually skills and which are something else that matters but who knows what that is.

Vanguard. I'm alone on an island. Am I also a masochist?

Gods and Heroes, here now. How is the bug squashing going? If the Gods can guarantee that I don't crash just as I have finally gotten to the quest object or just as I am engaging the boss, I might bite on this one.

So, I'm back at Rift's solid game play, entertainments, class structure, crafting, public events, itemization, dev dedication, and constant updates.

Okay, how do I get to this island?

On the flip side, this guy obviously thought he was in a place where his views and behavior were respected and agreed with; that is, he thought he was in a safe place to speak as he did. Sort of like being in a clubhouse, where he can do any idiot thing and say anything you want about the guys that are not part of the club.

So kudos to the rest of the community and CCP for saying, "Uh, no, dude. That's ugly."

Well, the juvenile, bullying community of WoW is certainly one of the things that spoiled my pleasure of it. But I don't know how you would filter a community for "people on drugs", "people who think they are funny when they are just rude or insulting", "people who are drunk and otherwise know better", and "people who think chat is a form of PvP".

People are socializing animals and will form society whenever there is 2 or more of them within sight or hearing of each other. Unfortunately for the "usual suspects" games, their communities socialized in a mean-spirited way. There is no way to undo that, not even for ready money.

"Expect no endgame raiding and associated timesinks. . . "

Oh, my. No gearing requirements to do certain content? No crafting items gated behind elite dungeons? Just fun? Is that what you're saying?

Gawd, can we get into this game already! Thanks for the insight, Jef. But only 5 hours? C'mon!

I went steady with WoW for years, then had a twirl with GW, before latching onto LOTRO. I'd like to say I've been steady with LOTRO for 5 years, but the truth is, I've wandered. I had a mad fling with Conan, blew out my video card with early Warhammer, and had a made infatuation with RoM, before getting engaged with Rift. Stars Wars was a flash in the pan. I wanted to love it, but it just didn't last. Now that LOTRO, too, has wandered beyond forgiveness, I'm looking for a new best friend and GW2 looks promising.

But, and I know we're talking MMOs here, the game that I always want to play, the game that I'll go to when I want some comfort food, a pleasant evening with friends, a challenge is Civilization. It is the game I have been playing the longest by far in all its many iterations. It's helped me through depression, illness, and heartbreak. We're now on Civ 5, for those who are unaware. You may finish a game of Civ, but you are never, ever done.