Ben

£44.99 is actually below the RRP of many 360 games in the UK. £49.99 is the default list price for most new releases (that's right, US$100). Thankfully there is usually plenty of discounting going on, even with the popular titles if you look around (Forza is currently going for £39.99, but that's still US$80). But we still generally pay a lot more than the US, or for that matter, the rest of Europe.

This applies to the consoles, the games and the downloadable content. On all 3 offerings (Wii, PS3 and 360).

But hey, at least we get something a few days before the US for once ;)

I completely understand and agree with your logic. Games often are not given the respect that the medium deserves. But I also feel sometimes there are those who feel games deserve it by right. But with rights come responsibilities as most creative mediums and indeed most people have learnt.

I think the games industry has a lot of growing up to do, we're kindof in the teenage years right now. We've grown very quickly and are testing boundaries, but occasionally get things wrong. We both need and resent boundaries and limits imposed upon us. We want to be 'grown up' sometimes but at the same time want to be a little kid. And from time to time we throw tantrums.

But the games industry will get there. I just worry about the damage that some of the more unnecessary backlashes can do. And how they often just give fuel to those who would deny games their place. And for all the wider and nobler goals of games and of the supporters of the industry. It only takes one irresponsible publisher and a few rabid fanboys to set the cause back years.

Now time to go and beat up some Alabama police with a vibrator! Sounds a bit Postal 2 to me ;)

I've not played it either, and to be honest I was looking forward to giving it a whirl on my Wii. Partially I must admit due to the controversy I knew it would get. Whether I will get the chance is up in the air. But those who have, both ratings bodies like the BBFC and even games journalists have basically agreed with each other on the game.

But I guess I don't blame the BBFC for their decison, feel disrespected by it or feel that they are somehow treating games as second class citizens. They are different mediums, simple as that. The press over here are often biased, as are some politicians. But from my experience the BBFC are the least of the games industries concerns and more often than not a great supporter. I can disagree with their decisions or with their power to censor, but that's a different matter. What they have been, unlike so many out there, is fundamentally fair, open and honest.

I totally agree that it will take games a while longer to get to where, say, films are. But that is something which we all have a part to play in, those who make games, those who consume them and the rest of society. And sadly, I feel many of those hitting out at the BBFC or other ratings organisations do not fully appreciate.

I'm not sure whose portraying this image of legions of 10 year olds going for Manhunt 2. Certainly not me or for that matter the BBFC. But as I said, in my experience, I've seen far more people ignore the ratings on violent computer games than ignore the ratings on films, or for that matter, pornography. If you want to talk about double standards, why is it that so many are fine with a game like GTA when it involves violence, but when sex comes into it the rating has to be changed to increase restriction?

Either way it looks like we're two lone voices having an adult discussion :) I guess I just wish there had been more of this sort of discussion earlier on and less of the un-thought out mindless backlash which we criticise the anti-game movement for.

@Greg

No they do not classify books in the UK. But we have had books banned as being 'obscene' in the past and so has the US.

I understand the point you are tring to make, but frankly the old 'art' versus 'games' thing doesn't wash with me in this argument. I think it's overused by people as an easy defense and to help them feel like they're being somehow opressed. Some people may have prejudices about games but I feel that many gamers are bringing their preducidices into this argument.

The BBFC have not acted in a way which says they are looking down upon games. They have acted fairly within their remit. If they considered games as just 'toys' or just 'entertainment' then I don't think they would have decided to not give the game a classification. If anything it is wider society that sees games as just 'toys' and therfore doesn't take the ratings games are given seriously.

In my experience in the UK the ratings on games are completely ignored. And it's far more cmmon for a kid in a shop to pick up a game such as GTA and scream that they want it rather than picking up a copy of Hostel or Lady Chatterly's Lover and scream about wanting it. You say 'young' kids being interested in Pokemon, which probably is the case. But what about those who are older, say 10-15. I don't think they want Pokemon. They tend to want the higher rated games. Even if that's through emulating an older sibling or friend, don't you think we should ask why that is and address that rather than criticising the BBFC for doing their job?

"Is it the fault of people over 18 that people under 18 want to play the game?"

It is when it is people over the age of 18 supplying them and encouraging them to play it. Which sadly is often the case. How many family members bought underage children copies of GTA for example? Don't blame the BBFC for society and our own shortcomings.

"but you can play a certain gory scene on a DVD over and over again. AND gory/graphic movies ARE accessable to younger viewers."

Yes you can replay videos and that comparison is made in the article, it just seems to have not made the Joystiq 'cut' ;) Gory and graphic films are accessible to younger viewers, but it's far more common for adult themed games to be given to young children than films. Largely because there is the attitude within the wider world that games are for kids.

"A 7-year old can walk into any Barnes & Noble and pick up the entire Chuck Palahniuk library"
It's not the BBFC's job to classify books in American shops though ;) Besides, how many 7 year olds do you know who read controversial books compared with the number of 7 year old you know who play computer games rated for teens or adults?

Why does Joystiq insist on continuing to accuse the BBFC of double standards? Games are not films, just as films are not books and apples are not oranges. The BBFC does more research and takes their role more seriously than many classification bodies out there. They also spend a lot of time supporting the games industry against it's proponents. And yet places like Joystiq cannot help but make snide jibes even when finally doing (or copying) someone else's research into the body.

If you disagree with the BBFC's remit or their role, then do so. If you disagree fundamentally that any body can censor then do so (and I suggest you look at the self censorship of news, TV, etc while you are at it). But while doing so ask yourselves why throughout the Manhunt 2 saga so many have felt the need to unfairly pounce on a fundamentally balanced group such as the BBFC?

Thanks Justin :)

There's just been an equivalent announcement for the service on this side of teh pond (Europe). It seems the service will be known as WiiWare in the US and Wii Software in Europe. No word on nomenclature for Japan as of yet.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=26163

It certainly will be interesting to see how this new strategy pans out and how they will interact with with developers and consumers alike.

I'm not quite sure how you can call this jumping on the User Generated Content bandwagon. There's no mention of hobbyists or home development, or anything akin to XNA (which many would argue isn't a pure example of UGC either). They may be courting the casual games market or encouraging development from small indie developers, but this is still very much focussed on professional development not end-users from my reading.

@Greg

Yes that's pretty much what I'm saying. Although it goes beyond the mere act of defending and into the whole approach of some of the 'supporters' of the industry and their commentary.

From my reading of many (not all) of the posts made by Joystiq writers and a lot of the comments here, not to mention many other news stories and forums, there has been a huge polarisation occurring. We (rightfully) cry foul when the games industry is treated badly, when partisan commentators accuse the industry of wrong-doings, when games are classed as immature or not treated the same as other industries.

Then what happens when a game is actually treated the same as a film? (Which it was by the BBFC). A large proportion of the community jumps into a mindless reflex action of defence. It's understandable to a degree given the slating that games get in some quarters, but I feel the approach and targets have been entirely misplaced.

In the UK, the BBFC acted within it's remit, additionally they have defended the games industry time and time again. They've spoken out against the backlash against games like Bully and performed extensive research into the medium purely so they can do what they've been doing in this country for decades. Agree with them or not, they were doing their job. Admittedly this means it's illegal to sell the game (although not to own it) but it's not a first for games or film.

In the US the game was given a rating, retailers and platform holders have decided they won't stock or approve the game. It hasn't been banned.

Censorship laws vary throughout the world. How these are implemented is an important and wide reaching issue. There also should be some sensitivity (or at least basic research by those writing 'news') to the international variation, rather than an entirely US-centric approach which we have largely seen. there has also been little questioning of Take 2's motives. Manhunt has currently shot into the top 5 PS2 games at a large web-based retailer in the UK. And if Manhunt 2 ends up being available I'm sure this free publicity and the interest and mystique will do sales no harm. It's a game the company regularly play, and frankly they do it solely for their own profits without any care for the impact on the rest of the industry or to prove a point about 'art'.

Unfortunately this isn't what most have been discussing. Instead, yes, people have been acting like zealots. And sadly often falling into the hands of the anti-game movement and proving that the industry (or at least the commentators and consumers) are often not as mature as they profess to be.

Most of the article seems to support the views of the BBFC, Stephen Totilo describing the way it made him feel and N'Gai Croal going so far as to say he cannot quibble with the BBFC and IFCO's descriptions of the game.

What the article does do is disagree with the fact that the BBFC has the right to not give a game (or for that matter a film) a rating. Or that any organisation has the right to censor.

But I suppose stating that wouldn't go along with Joystiq's own slant on this story.

Now, I don't agree with censorship, but so much of the reporting of events has been so utterly one-sided that frankly it falls into the hands of the anti-game movement. Adopting a Jack Thompson-like approach of making bold statements about a game before even having seen it or evangelically defending your passion while chastising anyone who says anything against it are not positive traits. This is not the way to prove the games industry, journalists or gamers are mature and capable of dealing with adult concepts. It is not a way to get games accepted on an equal footing with other expressive and creative mediums.