Blizzard vs. gaymers
by Vladimir Cole 
{ Jan 31st 2006 at 7:30PM }
Sara Andrews was recruiting players for her gay-and-lesbian-friendly guild when she received a warning from Blizzard
that if she didn't stop doing that, she'd be banished from the game.
Blizzard's argument in making this threat: bringing up such touchy subjects in the game world ultimately devolves into a nasty shouting match that creates a negative atmosphere for all players. By forbidding public discussion of such topics, Blizzard believes the game will be a more pleasant place for everyone. After all, who wants games to be invaded by bigots wielding incendiary placards? (No word on whether Blizzard also recommends that players who have created characters with darker skin tones immediately delete said characters and reroll as unpigmented characters. Darker skin tones invite racist remarks, after all, and we musn't create a negative game environment.)
Here's what an anonymous Blizzard employee who goes by the handle "Caydiem" had to say on the subject:
We encourage community building among our players with others of similar interests, and we understand that
guilds are one of the primary ways to forge these communities. However, topics related to sensitive real-world subjects
-- such as religious, sexual, or political preference, for example -- have had a tendency to result in communication
between players that often breaks down into harassment.
To promote a positive game environment for everyone and help prevent such harassment from taking place as best we
can, we prohibit mention of topics related to sensitive real-world subjects in open chat within the game, and we do our
best to take action whenever we see such topics being broadcast. This includes openly advertising a guild friendly to
players based on a particular political, sexual, or religious preference, to list a few examples. For guilds that wish
to use such topics as part of their recruiting efforts, our Guild Recruitment forum, located at our community Web site,
serves as one open avenue for doing so.
If Blizzard believes that discussion of sexual orientation "is not appropriate for the high fantasy setting of the World of Warcraft," (as stated in an email sent to Sara Andrews) then why does the company endorse heterosexual weddings? In an officially sponsored "Group Screenshot Contest," Blizzard chose this photo of a male and female character getting married in a chapel. By endorsing the heterosexual relationships but explicitly forbidding the mere discussion of homosexual topics, Blizzard is in fact discriminating against those who don't march to the hetero-normal drumbeat.
There's even more evidence that Blizzard is being inconsistent. If discussion of sexual orientation does not belong in the World of Warcraft, then Blizzard needs to explain why players who type "/silly" while playing male characters of the Tauren race are rewarded with a pre-recorded voice that says, "Homogenized? No, I prefer the ladies."
The question is not so much whether the company is discriminating (it is), but what its motives are for doing so. Some possibilities:
- accident: sometimes individual employees make mistakes or misapply policies. Reporting for In Newsweekly (a gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender news and entertainment weekly) Alexander Sliwinski writes, "A series of e-mails back and forth concerning the incident, seems to make it clear that Blizzard may be inadvertently using a policy meant to protect GLBT people as a way to discriminate against them."
- ignorance: sometimes companies just don't really understand what it means to discriminate against a group of minorities. Sometimes it takes a court case or two to wake a company up.
- deliberate discrimination: We can't rule out the possibility that some higher-up at Blizzard is deliberately enforcing a policy that discriminates against the gay community.
- The guild that started it all by advertising in chat channels about their LGBT-friendly guild, and were promptly served notice that such advertisements are not allowed.
- In Newsweekly broke the news, from there it spread to:
- The Guardian Games Blog's Aleks Krotoski notes: "Eh?! This makes no sense, and perpetuates the view that the online space is straight, thus filtering out the very diverse set of people who enjoy a virtual life. It also suggests that they are happy to coddle those users who think it's OK to throw out homophobic epithets, of which--in their view--there must be many"
- Boing Boing's Cory Doctorow asks, "Will a game ever give players citizenship instead of just customership? Will players always be willing to treat games as their online homes if they have to rely on customer service ethos instead of the Constitution to assure them of a fair shake?"
- Law Geek asks, "So what, Blizzard now has a 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' policy?"
- Terra Nova's take includes a strong, mature discussion after a teensy little blog entry.
- WoW Insider's Jennie Lees takes a dig at the Xbox Live service, writing, "I don't want to be discriminated against in-game for my gender or sexuality--that's what Xbox Live is for."
- Even
CNET covers the story.
- MMorgy (warning: MMorgy's site banner is PG13) speculates on the impact that such policies might have on the game world: "watch as the interesting people leave due to crazy ass rules, the fun people leave due to creative stiffling, even in guild names, and see how nifty your world is then."
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 2)
Dave @ Jan 31st 2006 10:29PM
Why does anybody care? People aren't even allowed to be gay in a fictional world? Apparently, even in Azeroft, Bush is President.
calthaer @ Jan 31st 2006 10:33PM
You want to play on someone else's playground? You're going to have to play by their rules. If you don't like their rules, don't play.
If it bugs you so much, go make your own playground and then you can make the rules.
Blizzard can do whatever they want, and the only say you have over it is the ~$10 / account that you give them each month.
Mike @ Jan 31st 2006 10:33PM
I'm all for gay rights and such, but Blizzard is totally correct in doing this. There's no need for the players to become polarized between gay guilds and straight guilds, it can only end poorly.
The ZeroCorpse @ Jan 31st 2006 10:42PM
1. I no longer will be on WoW because of this issue. Let the bigots have their way. In no time WoW will become a place filled with intolerant people who will find that they can't even get along with each other. F*** this noise. I'm not playing in an environment that has always allowed Christians and other groups to form guilds and advertise them in-game (and I've seen it many times) but instantly turns rotten when the guild is GLBT in nature.
2. The thing about gay marriage is that it's necessary to have marriage rights in order to visit your partner in the hospital or make medical decisions. It's necessary for tax reasons. It's necessary for benefits. It's necessary for more than just partnership. ---And if any of you idiots studied the issue, you'd find that "marriage" is a property rights law that was called "maritus" in ancient Rome, and it was fairly common for those involved in maritus to be of the same gender (and some weren't even gay. It was just about property and representation). There were even emperors who entered into same-gender maritus. It didn't become "God's will" until a Christian emperor came along late in the game and changed all the laws to reflect his narrow point of view.
So don't give me that "tradition" B.S. because you don't know what you're talking about.
A person doesn't have to be GLBT to recognize bigotry when they see it, and this policy was thinly-veiled bigotry.
And all you homophobes can just go to hell. Your primitive mindset is no different than racism.
And to the jackass that said that religion is something you're born with: Are you really that stupid? Yes, there are Japanese Jews. There are white Muslims. There are black Catholics. Religion is something that is TAUGHT to people (usually through brainwashing, but that's another rant) and not something that is inherently part of a person. You aren't born Christian. You're Christian because your mommy and daddy shoved God down your throat like they did Santa Claus, except that most people don't ever figure out that God's even more mythological than the jolly red elf Santa Claus, and they never bother to learn anything else so that their fragile ideology isn't shattered.
It's backwards attitudes like some of those I see here that make me feel sick and embarassed to be part of the human race. You people suck. Piss on you.
portnoy @ Jan 31st 2006 10:43PM
Joystiq has rules about what you can say or can't say on their blog. Are they bigots or stifling free speech? No they are promoting an environment for their customers.
Its any environment they deem appropriate for the product they provide. They have the right to do this. If you don't like the posting rules, go somewhere else. Same goes for WoW. Its really no more complicated than that.
Anything else is just BS politics by people with agendas.
jc @ Jan 31st 2006 10:48PM
ah who cares! Let gays be gay evlves, gay orcs, or whatever gay things they wanna be.
The whole game dynamics in this game is about 'killing' creatures and 'loot' from the dead if you bible heads haven't noticed!!
Talk about morality.. sheesh..
Alex K. @ Jan 31st 2006 10:50PM
Blizzard can be pro or anti gay as much as they damn please it's their game! freedom of speech doesn't apply to private "clubs" or gathering areas, etc. hell, most forums ban talking about homosexuality. the word "gay" is banned on most forums anyway!
I don't run around creating straight clans, just for straight people. I don't make the straight clubs in schools, I don't walk around telling people how offended I am that they used the word "heterosexual" or "straight". No no no, I mean, if you were to start a clan that was ONLY for gay people, that WOULDN'T be descrimination against straight people. No, for some reason the world thinks that descrimination is one way.
To me the gay community is really embarrassing itself. It's just parading around whining about rights that they already have! Telling us how they are somehow more enlightened individuals who are all unique and colorful and how straight people are just ignorant.
Hey, at least straight people figured out how to reproduce. But no, that's just ignorance, only opressive narrow minded people think the only way to make babies is through reproduction.
barb dybwad @ Jan 31st 2006 10:53PM
Blizzard's justification is total crap unless they crack down on open chat announcements of in-game hetero weddings. Which... they don't.
It's also total crap to claim they're keeping "sexuality" out of the game when they've got big-breasted female toons and NPCs running around with oftentimes ample bare skin showing in a game *where you want to be as armored as possible.*
bandeeto @ Jan 31st 2006 10:58PM
***
"Judging the outcome of someone's actions as moral is simply stupid. It's the intentions that count. Otherwise doctors are murderers and anyone that accidentally saved you in the process of trying to kill you is a hero."
***
Funny, "judging the outcome of someone's actions" happens all of the time (in the real world). It's called the court of law, and you'd better be glad that you are oh so increadibly wrong. If our judicial system did convert to judgment based only on intention, then it would be practically impossible to convict anybody.
Also, puttying someone down for having morals is pretty hypocritical. After all, you are judging them because they are being judgemental. If it is wrong for anybody to be judgemental, then how cay YOU judge someone ELSES beliefs, and therefore determine whether they are correct or not?
Furthermore, you, my dear friend, are precluded from having any opinion on anything... ever. Otherwise you would be comparing your personal beliefs (morals) against someone elses, and JUDGING.
Ulsess you don't mind being a hypocrite. Then it doesn't matter what you say. After getting to know you, no one will listen.
Stoli @ Jan 31st 2006 11:14PM
Well, first, there is a group that has injected religion into guilds and such for online games:
http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3146863
I'm not sure if there's an actual Christian guild, as alluded to on Penny Arcade:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/01/16
But if there is/was, would Blizzard be obligated to enforce the same policy?
Honestly, I'm trying to figure out why Blizzard is even involved in this. Let whomever create whatever guild they want! If people get annoying about it, well, that's what the /ignore command is for.
Oh, and 17. Wonder Cheese, way to invoke Godwin's Law. :)
mars @ Jan 31st 2006 11:21PM
In a free market capitalistic society, Blizzard has every right to say we don't want gay groups, Christian groups, groups of people who like polka. On the same hand, however, we as consumers have every right to complain about the service a company provides or limitations it may choose to impose.
If I make a product that offends people, as a business would I rather a) see my sales suddenly plummet or b) hear from my consumers and realize that I can make a change that would make them happy and me more profitable?
It is very easy for someone who is not discriminated against to think there is no problem. Steve fees that Blizzard did what was morally right. However, when someone misinterpreted his beliefs he felt the need to say "You just worry about what you do with your time, ok?" Why is it that he feels others should not pass judgment on what he can do with his time, while simultaneously saying Blizzard was morally right for telling users what they could do with theirs? Simple, because some people lack introspection and only understand what affects them.
If Mattel wanted to make a Nazi Barbie they are entirely within their rights to do so. We as consumers are entirely within our rights to never shop from Mattel again. Blizzard can do what they want and we can complain. Let’s just hope that the discussion will bring about change not only within Blizzard, but perhaps also within the hearts and minds of the people who don't understand the problem at hand.
ill trooper @ Feb 1st 2006 12:03AM
Wonder Cheese, I am not confused. Seems you have misunderstood what I said. What I was saying about "how Blizzard should handle it" was an over-simplification of a possible statement from Blizzard - if I have to spell it out, I don't think I'll be able to match the headiness of a proper EULA, but to flesh it out a bit for you:
I think Blizzard is going to have to fess up to their own inconsistant treatment of sexuality, and say, "We have reviewed our policies and realize there has been a misunderstanding that has offended particular members of our gaming community. People are welcome to organize personal guilds and clubs in our new forum area in the interest of playing with like-minded players with common interests. But be advised that soliciting real-world hate-agendas in-game will not be tolerated. Offending parties will be contacted and put under review."
It's really up to the legal wording, and how Blizzard decides to enforce what they say. Complaints could be filed by someone if they feel something is offensive to them and the alleged offenders would be reviewed if it appears someone is establishing a 'Hate group' clan or a discriminitory clan. In fact, I'm sure this policy is already in place, and this whole brouhaha is based on a questionable enactment of that policy.
(On a side note, it seems that many of the posters on this forum are a little confused as to what it means to be discrimated against _if_ you a minority, by race, religion, or sexual preference: For instance, forming a 'straight' guild is not the same as a 'gay' guild, because the percentage of straight people in this world far out-weighs the amount of gay people, and that is often the burden of being part of the majority: you need to be a good-enough person to accept differences and how a majority thought-pattern can effectively drown out a minority that has as much say-so as you on a person-to-person basis. Minority-thought (meaning "less-subscribed-to ideas and beliefs" here) is a good complement to majority-thought and should be nurtured and considered, which is why I feel Blizzard needs to step up and realize that WoW has become a microcosm that needs to respect laws and ideas of the real world - as in, gay-bashing online is not really acceptable in today's society.
It's a very complex subject and it's too much to cover here, so instead of quoting Orwell's Animal Farm, which seemed to bother you, I'd just suggest to those interested that they look into the Cornel West book "Race Matters," (not entirely even and unbiased, but an interesting take that might prompt some to see things from outside of their own perspective) or look into books about 'affirmative action' to help understand the less-than-obvious dynamics of majority and minority.)
And to address your accusation that I am contradicting myself, I only ask that you exercise one of the key points in debating: If you are going to quote me, DON'T QUOTE OUT OF CONTEXT and ADDRESS THE ENTIRE QUOTE.
Meaning, that when you quote me saying "the online community needs to be trusted," and then rail on me because I also say Blizzard needs to step in at some juncture, you really miss my point by omitting the FULL quote: "The online community needs to be trusted to show others the respect of being an equal player - if someone begins acting in a hateful way, Blizzard should punish them"
If this forum allowed italics, I might have put the word 'begins' in italics for emphasis, but I rushed on thinking it was clear.
So, when I typed that, I was implying that Blizzard shouldn't _pre-punish_ the person who wants to go online as a gay orc by pre-empting it, but rather, allow and trust the community to react, and if it's met with some negativity, remind everyone that it is an open society, encouraging harmony and differences, and after all, discimination will get you swiftly banned. I meant Blizzard needs to have faith in the online community and foster open-mindedness towards, say, gay people and Chinese people, to use recent examples of serious breakdowns in their 'ignore it, don't discuss it, it will go away' policy.
And if it starts to get like it did with the 'goldfarmer' incident, they need to step in, change the game, or police the online WoW world and punish that sort of behavior with warnings and bannings. I hear what your're saying, Wonder Cheese, broad rules would seem to have a good effect and I understand and agree. But what is at issue here is that Blizzard is not always on point and has contradicted themselves by not practicing their own 'broad rules' by putting a little gay joke in there. As innocuous as it is, it's still a joke about an issue they say they don't want in their world.
WoW is getting so large that real world issues need to be enforced like they are here in the real world - allow it, but step in if the rights are misused.
Yes, it's a lot of resources that would have to be used to monitor for hate and disorderly conduct, but it is a monthly-funded (and a well-funded) world comprised of paying customers that all deserve the best experience they can have, short of ruining it for others.
However, that would also mean: Blizzard, don't have homo-gags like the 'homogenic' one listed above. Don't talk about player relations like clans and marriage if you only mean it for hetero players. This sends mixed messages and players think it's OK to carry on with similar, more hateful behavior. It's an online world that is forming there, and if it's allowed to run amok a lot of people won't want to be there.
But again, it's a product, and when that happens, and it will, the exodus to another online world will kill WoW with the same weapon that WoW used to decimate those MMORPGs before it: a more open, immersive experience.
.
LaughingMan @ Feb 1st 2006 12:32AM
Side stepping all the above posts, just let me add that I think Blizzard did the right thing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-gay. I believe in anyone's right to gather and share like minded views, real life or internet. What you do behind your own door is no one's buisness.
But I imagine Blizzard took one look at the group and their heads started spinning. They could see the homophobic insults, the complaints, and imagine a nightmare no win scenario where this spills out into the press, espically one of these talking head shows like "The O'Reily Factor" or that Tucker Carlson show. A show like that would love to take something popular like WoW and spin it ridiculously out of context.
I mean I feel bad for this Sara Andrews. It's gotta be a bummer to play with a bunch of dumb kids that ruin your game with homophobic insults. (see above) I hope she can find some kind of compromise and continue to play.
bla @ Feb 1st 2006 12:53AM
Good on blizzard!
Kajex @ Feb 1st 2006 1:06AM
I have never played World of Warcraft. I play Guild Wars and City of Villains. But I've experienced similar incidents happening in both realms-
- In Guild Wars, every so often, there'll be a Guild formed that asks for all Catholic and religious players to join, with some funky religious name like "The Paladins of Jehova" or something like that. And of course, there will also be guilds form for females only.
- In City of Villains, simply on my personal preference, I am part of a group that only allows characters with a draconic backstory. We kind've RP the roles a bit, and really have fun with it. It's not so bad. But of course, the same "females only" Supergroup requests are there every now and again.
The problem with the religious and gender separations? Nothing really, if the group if just to be formed on the basis of a single idea- maybe the idea behind it is as harmless and wanting to find another group of females who play just to have fun with, or because you like to discuss religion now and again. Alot of MMORPGs aren't just about grinding and farming so much as they are also about social interaction over the medium of the internet... no matter what Leo from VGcats says. >.>
The problem that stems from it is that it's a medium where not everybody can be (or rather, do not even HAVE to be) totally honest about themselves. You could meet a Ranger on Guild wars named Jydene Kotep, a character created to look really cool. Or Sen Relado, a dark-skinned warrior babe decked in armor. But if you do, I'll let you know beforehand that I created those characters, and I'm a male. I just like the variety. The root of the dillema is when somebody tries to fake it- a male pretending to be a girl just to fuck around on a whim, or a religion basher who joins just to mess things around on a forum before quitting. It happens.
What kind've gets me is that the idea behind social interaction has partly to do with finding things that you might have in common with other people. I may not like Catholicism (and that's saying something, coming from someone who was raised Catholic and turned out to be agnostic), but there are alot of people who are, and forming a guild on that basis is, apparently, okay. And maybe people don't like Homestar Runner, but if there are a group of people who just LOVE the guy and want to create a group based on the name so that, when not playing, they can talk about him, then by all means, that's fine.
But the moment people go on to say that it's freaking immoral or even "touchy" as a subject to form a guild for homosexuals is turning a blind eye to the fact that there is more to these people than just the fact that they like to have sexual intercourse with a member of the same sex, and instead focusing on the said aspect.
It probably doesn't even occur to most people that there are other people out there forming guilds that end up talking about sex at one point or another, either to geeky pervishness or a libido increase after interaction with a virtual character. People all are, naturally, perverts. Even religious people.
I could go out and just as easily say "Hey, I don't like the idea that there are people who worship a god whom I believe is just a peachy way of demonizing others like gays and black people, so therefore guilds based upon Christianity create a form of a touchy subject that should be dealt with with their disbanding." (to note, on some level, I do believe this, but I exaggerated to drive my point across.) But it's not my place to judge an idea that a person has, or a lifestyle, and tell them to get the fuck out of the game simply because I may not agree with that idea.
Sex is a touchy subject, right? But it's such an accepted one that there are patches out for nudity... and parts... even for Taurans... which to some people, is disturbing. I've seen worse. Like a moogle mod for Morrowind that can be patched for moogle wangs and titties. Cute, in a deranged sort of way. =P And yeah, there are alot of people out there who might dig that stuff, but I'm not going to go out of my way to say "Hey, the idea of you having a sexual stimulation out of a modified patch for a game is offensive to me, so get the fuck off the server so I won't have to deal with it". First of all, it just doesn't bother me in that way, but even if it did, it's no one's place to tell another that, because someone might find the subject touchy, it needs to go.
Summing it up...
If the idea behind an MMORPG is social interaction in the internet based upon a similarity of people and connecting with others by forming groups based on certain ideas to create friendships and companionships, why is it that homosexuality as an idea cannot be accepted as a focal point for a group of people to connect and anchor themselves for their own enjoyment, too?
bd @ Feb 1st 2006 1:27AM
None of this would be a problem if gays, feminists, and oversensitive kiddos made it be a problem.
Jihan @ Feb 1st 2006 1:29AM
I have absolutely no coherent thought on this whole matter, but I just wanted to point out one thing regarding Lekko's comment.
How the heck do you "pubically" advertise your guild? No, wait. Don't answer that question. I don't want to know.
Kajex @ Feb 1st 2006 1:38AM
66- I don't play WoW, but it it's anything lik Guilwars as far as the chat interface, then typing anything down will allow anybody to hear it.
MaC01 @ Feb 1st 2006 3:26AM
Homophobes are gay
jadenguy @ Feb 1st 2006 4:28AM
why do people even comment anymore? nobody's gonna read 69 comments. anyhow, blizzard was right, somebody is tying real world issues to their fantasy world, and it's become a humongus pain in the ass. i gotta hear this argument in all my favorite shows, every comedian has to say he hates bush and loves gay marriages because if people clap for you, it's easy to get them to trust you and laugh, now more attention whores want to start trouble in my fantasy world. i feel bad for blizzard losing my 10 dollars and wonderful personage to this.
Kajex @ Feb 1st 2006 5:11AM
It would be considered ignorant to assume that homosexuality and using it as a focal point for creating a guild is an "issue". These are just people who want to create a guild to meet other people not unlike themselves, just like a religious person creates a religious guild in order to recruit religious people. I could say that such a person using religion as a focal point in their guild also has "issues", but that would be ignorant as well, not to mention brash thinking and potentially prejudice.
soco @ Feb 1st 2006 5:14AM
we've kinda followed this and a few other related blizzard stories on gaymer.org and the problem to me is the double standard on the issue. i don't mind them not wanting the discussion in the game and such. that's fine, i don't want to have it in a game either and i will never bring it up on XBL or elsewhere. i'm there to have fun and not to preach.
my problem is that there are people who find the common useage of the word 'fag' and 'gay' offensive in certain useages. normally the useage of gay when they intend to mean weak or stupid. Blizzard has told some peopel who have complained to 'just ignore it', which i could accept if they allowed the advertising of a GBLT friendly group. it was never intended as group exclusive to gays and wasn't meant to preach some gay philosophy, but was meant as a bit of safe haven so people wouldn't have to be worried about hearing offensive phrases from their group. there are GBLT guilds and clans for every game in existance that supports those things, and probably a lot more gaymers than people realize.
Blizzard then allows the advertising on it's message boards, which again, seems like a bit of a contradiction to me, and when insults are said there, the mods just say 'watch your language' and never actually does anything about it.
personally i don't have a problem with the useage of these words in games, and i use them as well. i personally think the meaning, in teh gaming world, has changed slightly, and i've been in many an argument with other people about this point. however, there are those who aren't aware of this and take offense to the words being used this way. if the purpose of a game is to have fun and be isolated from the real world, then those words and phrases should simply be banned so that even those few gay people feel the same as everyone else there. there are plenty of other words in the English language to use in these places to keep from making others feel inferior. it only takes a second of forethought to stop.
again, it's not like these people are recruiting, and it's really no different than the various religious groups organizing, except this isn't a religion. as on gaymer.org they weren't restricting themselves to gays. there are straight people who join these things too. it's just about having fun and feeling comfortable and unrepressed in a virtual world, and leaving all of the real-life problems behind you, and the double stance Blizzard takes doesn't really contribute to that.
Spider Chii @ Feb 1st 2006 5:59AM
Welcome to last week, me and my girlfriend have both been posting on the Europe forums all weekend ;)
I don't think Blizz were expecting this to happen. As far as I can see, some noob saw the recruiment in general chat, reported it and a GM thought 'On no, can't offend this guy' and issued the warning. What this has done though, is shown that there was some disgustingly ignorant bastards playing this game. I've seen so many players on the US forums with incredibly offensive views and I bet none of them have had warnings. I'm annoyed with the way they've handled it tbh, they're 'Case closed' mentaility is raising more problems than it solves. Plus the the fact that certian members of the gay community are rampant idiots and letting the whole side down.
I'm not going to stop playing. Every gay person in the game could stop play and Blizz wouldn't even notice.
Sid Icarus @ Feb 1st 2006 6:23AM
Idiot christians..
The act of letting this guild band together and do the same thing every other guild does IS NOT forcing homosexual beliefs on your poor little chirstian minds.
But saying that they cant form a guild because they are homosexual IS forcing your beliefs on other people.
If christians wanted to talk to me about thier beliefs, be my guest. But christians seem to think they literaly have the god given right to force their books into public schools, teach classes the way they want to, use the republican idiots in power to put their beliefs into law and control media (jack tompson anyone?)
Screw that. You cant keep adapting an obsolete text to deal with things its human writers never saw coming.
brit @ Feb 1st 2006 6:57AM
amen, rOBe
and for the record, homosexuality isn't something you can 'condone'. That would be like taking it upon yourself to condone somebody being Asian. It's not something you choose to be, it's something you are. I wouldn't have chosen to be gay - it would be easier to be straight to be honest. And parents dont try to teach their kids to be gay, but they do try to impose religion on them. Go figure.
Now, is Xbox360 worth buying? Still not sure.
Peace out
Chad @ Feb 1st 2006 7:14AM
Take one look at all the flaming (no pun intended) posts on here and I think it's obvious why Blizzard wants to avoid it. It's a video game, not a soapbox.
portnoy @ Feb 1st 2006 7:51AM
"Screw that. You cant keep adapting an obsolete text to deal with things its human writers never saw coming."
This is the epitome of ignorance. It just goes to show that you have no idea what is in any particular "text".
This is exactly what countries do with their constitutions BTW and it seems to work pretty well.
When a "text" is based on simple truths, it can often be applied to situations long after it was written. Hammurabi's code is still applicable in many ways to this day.
Yeah, the concept of not stealing is SOOOOOOOOOO obsolete. How could Hammurabi ever have realized that stealing is actually a very good thing. How is it that shakespeare is still so moving hundreds of years later? Psh. Obsolete. Socrates? Obsolete. Plato? Obsolete.
And you probably delude yourself into thinking YOU are openminded. Thats funny. It made me laugh.
GlitchCog @ Feb 1st 2006 8:14AM
The concept of a "hate frag" makes me snicker.
Also, Christians and anyone else who loves their god more than they do other humans who have hurt no one are scum.
God is your imaginary friend, not mine; I don't want to hear what you think he wants me to do.
WizarDru @ Feb 1st 2006 9:59AM
For the record, Portnoy, there are plenty of Socratic and Platonic thoughts that HAVE been discarded: just ask the Thirty Tyrants. Socrates and Plato believed that Democracy was a BAD IDEA, for example, and that Eleusian Mysteries were a reality along with personal Deamon. Ideas like Aristotle's 'elements' or anti-empirical observations (where math and reality had no intersection) are other examples.
As for the Bible, most Christians generally view some books with more gravity than others; the oft-quoted Leviticus (for it's prohibition on sexual conduct) is often ignored for many of its passages, such as the lenghty discussions of what kinds of animals to offer at burnt offerings as penance for sins and the proscription of public stoning for a variety of offenses.
So let's remember here: being close-minded and being Christian aren't necessarily related.
That said, this is a big pile of fuss over nothing. Blizzard just doesn't want ANYONE prosteltyzing ANTHING in the game. It's a GAME. People are supposed to be there to kill Monsters and take their stuff. Character models aside, there is no sexual component to the game. Male and female characters have the same stats and are identical in every way in terms of the game. I don't see a PLAYER's sexuality as any more relevant to the game than their politics...neither of which should come into play when we're pulling a mob.
Players who have something in common getting together is swell...players who wear some orientation on their sleeve just to make a point are irritating.
Lone Starr @ Feb 1st 2006 10:07AM
Predjudice against gays? Look at the comments -- isn't there also predjudice against Christians?
Sid Icarus @ Feb 1st 2006 10:17AM
Portnoy:
I am very openminded. I dont like closeminded people
Christian nutcases that decide they need to boycott Disney and the movie industry as a whole because they think it condones (aka' promotes) homosexuality, do not have a right to enforce their beliefs on me in the form of law simply because the bible says "Man should not lay with man".
NEWSFLASH!
I dont care what your book says any more then you care about what the Koran says.
Ripster40 @ Feb 1st 2006 10:29AM
Fricken damnit, this is why I have no faith in humanity. LEAVE IT BE! This is a game where real world politics are supposed to be left out, when I want to play WoW I want to escape for a bit not to worry about the war, the crime and whatever. EVERYONE IS WRONG IN THIS! This is just insane, the guild is still active, she can still recruit just in forums only! She is whining for crap and is now bringing in the religion into it! I would swear so hard at you if little children wheren't reading this, everyone here is a moron!
tibor @ Feb 1st 2006 10:39AM
Are you people really THAT delicate?
Jeez....
portnoy @ Feb 1st 2006 11:07AM
"I dont care what your book says any more then you care about what the Koran says.
This statement proves your complete closed-mindedness my friend. If you were openminded (or had actually read my post), you would realize its possible for me to see good in historic literature, such as shakespeare, Hammurabi's code, the bible, socrates, plato and yes the koran, even though the words were written long ago. The age of a text such as these has little to do with their current usefulness, at least to those of us smart enough to look past the specific words to the actual meanings, lessons, and truth that can be found there.
For some reason in your "open"minded brain, you assume that if I think there is truth in the bible, I must completely disregard the koran. However, unlike you, I have actually read both. And there are alot of good lessons in the Koran that open minded people can embrace and use to enrich their lives and the lives of others.
So, please, lose your pathetic bigotry and learn something before you open your mouth and expose your hatred and intolerance for what it is.
Van @ Feb 1st 2006 11:57AM
This is America, and we have rights here. One of those rights is owning private property, and owning it means you can do with it what you wish.
If Blizzard wants to be a bunch of hypocritical, placating, homophobic cowards in how they regulate guilds, that's their right.
They built the network, they bought the servers, they wrote the software. Users only buy access, and we agree to allow Blizzard carte-blanche in arbitrarily running things as they wish at the end of the day.
If you cant live with that, dont agree to it - and then they wont let you onto the network. Problem solved.
If you dont like the music, change the station. Freedom of speech doesnt mean freedom to use other people's property against their will, and WoW is the property of Blizzard.
But just the same, all you conservative religious whackjobs who think "God hates fags" ought to be burned at your own evil hateful stakes. Who Would Jesus Hate, huh?
And all you liberal political whackjobs who think the world and everyone's property in it is yours to do with as you please, should move to Communist China where no one has any property rights and centralized govt dictates and regulates everything for the same so-called common good to protect the social fabric of the body politic from moral decay.
Your rights end where my rights begin, and vice versa.
-Van
BruteRules @ Feb 1st 2006 1:34PM
It is amazing how intolerant, supposed tolerant people can be. If someone believes that this should not be in their game it is their right. If you say no then you are not tolerant at all. Make your own game!
MrBlue @ Feb 1st 2006 1:50PM
what is the purpose of a quild in WoW anyway? in star wars galaxies i found no purpose that guilds served. why not just get rid of guilds? and why does it matter who the people are in real life. you are only interacting with avatars. as far as i know there is no way to act gay in WoW, so as i see it the only time gay has anything to do with the game is when you type it. its just a word. i'am all for freedom of speech, have no problems with gay people, religion, race etc., but how do you know the people are gay? or white? or christian? or even human? when it all comes down, its just a game inside a computer, w/ pixels saying things that may or may not be true. so why even get angry???
portnoy @ Feb 1st 2006 2:30PM
Yeah, what Van said.
:)
Glad to see someone else gets what I was trying to say earlier.
Seventy5 @ Feb 1st 2006 3:46PM
As a regular WoW player, I feel Blizzard is right on this one. I have nothing against gays, and I don't feel that is the real issue here anyway. Blizzard is taking a step to make sure that real life issues aren't brought into the game world. Straight vs gay, black vs white, christian vs muslim, these are all conflict that have a tendency to bring up heated debate, choosing of sides, harrassment & more hate. Azeroth is better without them, to be frank. To be quite honest, sex isn't something that makes a regular appearance in my WoW sessions, nor should it. I would feel the same way about someone recruiting for an "all straight" guild, or a christian only guild. If people choose to wander to the WoW message boards and join a gay friendly guild, more power to them for finding like-minded players to have a good time with. Further, I would invite any players to group with me, regardless of their sexual preference or guild orientation, but I don't think that I should have to be subjected to anyone's banter on that, or religion/politics/etc in the public chat channels. Nor should I have to tolerate other people ridicule or harrassment of them in those forums.
This is a game that puts you in a fantasy world. Many people roleplay hardcore, and I think most people would prefer to see the public chat channels left free of things that don't relate directly to the game world that we all play on. It's bad enough getting spam from the hundreds of guilds recruiting, but now some of you feel that we should have to have sexual orientation or religion brought up there too, in the name of free speech & all? Most of us who play WoW enjoy our temporary escape to Azeroth, free of all the problems, issues & debates of the real world. Please don't misinterperet that as anti-gay, anti-christian or whatever. With 5.5 million players, there are bound to be many, many different types playing, but they all have one thing in common in WoW. Why bring devisive issues in and potentially put a wedge between them? How does Talen Rainwhisper's RL sexuality affect how well he plays the tank in our group? It doesn't, so leave it in the RL, and leave Blizzard alone.
Sid Icarus @ Feb 1st 2006 4:24PM
Yeah, Vans an idiot.
"And all you liberal political whackjobs who think the world and everyone's property in it is yours to do with as you please, should move to Communist China where no one has any property rights and centralized govt dictates and regulates everything for the same so-called common good to protect the social fabric of the body politic from moral decay."
Replace the word "Liberal" with either Conservative or republican and your point would be valid.
The right wing crank suckers/christians seem to think they have the right to dictate what people should see, read, write or partake in.
Liberals are more inclined to let people do as they please so long as it does not directly affect someone elses life in a negative way.
The right wing is becoming the modern Nazi party. Now its called the GOP.
Virus @ Feb 1st 2006 5:07PM
“Saying the bible is out of date and worthless is on the same level as saying the Torah is out of date and worthless and the Koran is out of date and worthless. Way to be an accepting person as you seem to think you are.” Uhh well the Koran is way different than the bible if you must know. Funny thing is there is only 1 version of the Koran and EVERYONE is supposed to memorize it. The bible has 50 different versions that all renounce the others and all claim to be correct. Its accuracy regardless of if god is real or not is in serious doubt to anyone who has an open mind and is willing to read more than just “their” religions books.
“while it's wrong that Christians should express their views” Cause as a “Christian” from time to time you should be the bigger person that’s why you are Christian. Let me say this in bold so you can get it through your thick closed minded Christian skulls, YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO JUDGE OTHERS OR THEIR CHOICES!!! Christians make others hate them via ignorance of their own rules!!! Remember do unto other as you would have done unto you. Do you want ideas forced on you that others “think” are correct?? No you don’t so stop doing it to others.
“Christian values offend me” its different Christians don’t care who they offend or kill cause those offended are evil and thus lesser beings (before you flame open a history book).
In the end all of you are bitching and being selfish (yes even me) we all have an angle and our angle is all that matters to us. The difference between many of you and me is I don’t bring it in game!!!! I have my rights but others have theirs!! Yes I am saying this to both the gays and the gay haters. YOUR BOTH WRONG and both being hypocrites. Haters why do you care so much what others do in bed(curiosity is my guess)? Gays how do you “fight” others intolerance by being intolerant of their intolerance? Hate has just as much place in this world as love does and trying to repress it will only make more hate.
portnoy @ Feb 1st 2006 5:35PM
"Liberals are more inclined to let people do as they please so long as it does not directly affect someone elses life in a negative way."
Yes, so long as they make sure I pay in enough taxes to support all the liberals whose "do as you please" does not include getting a job.
We all have our politial opinions. Nobody is right or wrong. You need to settle down and quit dissing on everyone who doesn't agree with you.
oboreruhito @ Feb 2nd 2006 6:04AM
Blizz didn't say anything about the characters being gay, just advertising an in-game guild as being friendly to real-life gays. It's kinda sad, but with the in-game guild controls, you shouldn't have to do that.
Besides, if Blizz lets the GLBT-friendly guild go, it'll just be a matter of time before the anti-GLBT guild claims discrimination when Blizz tries to stop them. And that's before the Knights and Wizards of the White Hood show up.
AR @ Feb 3rd 2006 4:12PM
It always makes me cringe when LGBT supporters flame the Christians et al when responding to anti-gay sentiments. Christians on the receiving end tend to take it badly (can you blame them?). It also puts supportive Christians in an awkward position. And don't forget the many gay Christians in the world either.
But what I think what needs to be recognized is the suffering that has been inflicted on gay people by many Christians. LGBT people feel as though most Christians target them out for special treatment. They lash out in return which only serves to deepen the animosity. That being said, c'mon guys. Don't hurt the cause by descending to that level of 'dialogue'.
I don't play WoW, but if I did and were looking to join a guild, I know that I'd rather belong to a guild that is comprised of people who won't say things that I find personally injurious every other sentence. Now, not all those people have to be gay, but an LGBT-friendly guild would be great. Otherwise, even in in-game dialogue, one has to constantly guard against what you say to keep having anything that could turn your guildmates against you from 'coming out.' That's just not fun, whether in-game or out.
I guess I'd just like to see Blizzard reconsider this.