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Posted: Dec 30th 2006 7:45PM (Unverified) said

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Oh, looky. The retard rodeo is back in town. First the "People should buy the PS3 over the Wii because Sony loses money on each console, therefore it's a better value" article, now this.

Honestly, man. Maybe for Scrooge McDuck, with his vault of gold coins, having a 'gameplay mechanism' like shoving quarters into MS points sounds like a great idea. For me, with my 8 dollar an hour job, not so much.

I can seriously feel myself getting stupider every time I read one of these articles.

You are arguing that these games were MEANT to be played with the pay-to-play mechanism, that paying for the game up-front somehow cheapens the experience. I suggest that you turn around and give all the extra money you feel you should be spending on these games to, say, me. I could use it to buy a radiator.

Think back, Cole. You fed quarters into the arcade machines to play games, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

I'm sure publishers would LOVE to adopt this tactic. God knows they are trying. But it won't work. WHY? Because contrary to popular belief, most people arn't freaking idiots, and wouldn't want to pay 20 MS points per life. Or anything per life. You want to buy a game, veg out on the couch, and maybe call your friends over and tell them you have Contra.

The quarter gobbling aspect of Gauntlet was NEVER a 'gameplay mechanism'. It was a payment scheme. And, frankly, Gauntlet was one of the most expensive games you could play at the time. Does the game lose something in the translation from arcade to XBLA? Sure. But arguing that because the payment scheme is different now screws some fundamental aspect of the game up is like arguing that if you didn't kill the cow yourself, the beef doesn't taste as good. Is it true? Maybe. But I don't feel like hunting a wild cow to find out.

Posted: Dec 30th 2006 7:46PM (Unverified) said

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@ DZeroStar

Yes but see people aren't paying $400 for an arcade machine are they? They're paying $400 for an XBox360 that plays 360 games. The ability to pay 25 cents to play an arcade game would just be a bonus, and there would still be the option to just buy the game outright for one lump sum of MS points.

The only XBLA game that was really worth my money was Geometry Wars. I've gotten well more than $5 out of that game. But Mutant Storm? Nah. Especially since that game was $10. If there was a 25 cent pay-per-play option I would have realized how quickly that game loses its appeal and I would have never bought it. Joust was the same way. I bought it and barely played it. If there were a pay-per-play I could have taken a temporary trip down nostalgia lane and saved myself a couple of bucks from an actual purchase.

(Okay I take that back DOOM was also worth my money ;) ).

The pay-per-play idea certainly wouldn't work for all the XBLA titles, but for certain games (such as coin-op classics) I think it would work well. It also serves as a means to demo a FULL game before buying it, so it has two purposes.

Of course this is all rather pointless since I doubt MS would implement this feature anyway.

Instead, since we're on the subject of XBLA pricing structures, I think a "subscription" option to XBLA might work. XBoxLive gold is about $5 a month, add another $5 a month for unlimited XBLA downloads and that would be a pretty sweet deal, I think. I don't think it would be all that difficult to implement either. The only downside is every time you play a game your subscription would have to be verified online, so no bringing XBLA games to your friend's house. Other than that it would make for a great option.

I suppose thats a bit off topic, but the idea just popped in my mind.

Posted: Dec 30th 2006 7:56PM (Unverified) said

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@ DZeroStar

Yes but see people aren't paying $400 for an arcade machine are they? They're paying $400 for an XBox360 that plays 360 games. The ability to pay 25 cents to play an arcade game would just be a bonus, and there would still be the option to just buy the game outright for one lump sum of MS points.

The only XBLA game that was really worth my money was Geometry Wars. I've gotten well more than $5 out of that game. But Mutant Storm? Nah. Especially since that game was $10. If there was a 25 cent pay-per-play option I would have realized how quickly that game loses its appeal and I would have never bought it. Joust was the same way. I bought it and barely played it. If there were a pay-per-play I could have taken a temporary trip down nostalgia lane and saved myself a couple of bucks from an actual purchase.

(Okay I take that back DOOM was also worth my money ;) ).

The pay-per-play idea certainly wouldn't work for all the XBLA titles, but for certain games (such as coin-op classics) I think it would work well. It also serves as a means to demo a FULL game before buying it, so it has two purposes.

Of course this is all rather pointless since I doubt MS would implement this feature anyway.

Instead, since we're on the subject of XBLA pricing structures, I think a "subscription" option to XBLA might work. XBoxLive gold is about $5 a month, add another $5 a month for unlimited XBLA downloads and that would be a pretty sweet deal, I think. I don't think it would be all that difficult to implement either. The only downside is every time you play a game your subscription would have to be verified online, so no bringing XBLA games to your friend's house. Other than that it would make for a great option.

I suppose thats a bit off topic, but the idea just popped in my mind.

Posted: Dec 30th 2006 7:57PM JHarris said

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No, this is a bad idea.

One of the reasons that people buy Gauntlet over XBLA is so they DON'T have to pay an arcade operator to enjoy the game. Charge per play, and there goes the main justification for buying it.

The article author forgets that those high score lists were the purpose of the original arcade version as well. If one is playing Gauntlet in order to experience it as a "traditional" RPG, to see what there is to see, to get to high levels and see what levels they are and see if the player can survive them, and to reach an ending... then that is not the way to play it. Gauntlet's levels are not set in stone you see, in the arcade there was a pool of ninety or so possible levels the game could throw up against players. The only always-the-same levels in Gauntlet are the very first ones.

And, let me make this perfectly, crystal clear: GAUNTLET DOES NOT HAVE AN ENDING. If the player(s) exhaust all the game's levels in one play, they cycle. There is no way to finish the game. Neither is there one in Gauntlet II.

I agree, however, that the game does lose something if one can just put a coin in any time, but I would not suggest removing the "infinite coin" mode, which is the whole reason some people play and is great for practice in any case. Instead, I would handle it by offering different "challenges" with different amounts of starting coins. Like, a one coin game (it is possible to get quite far on one quarter, actually), a three coin game, a seven coin game, and a twenty coin game. This is usually how these arcade games are brought over, after all.

It is worth noting that all the home adaptions of the most recent arcade Gauntlet games, Legends and Dark Legacy, are even more point-missing than this because they lose the arcade games' timed health loss. That basically means players can get access to ultra-powerful, screen-clearing turbo attacks just by sitting around during a lull for a few seconds, because there is no health penalty for doing so. Where is the ire concerning that? Hmm? Hmmm??!!?

Posted: Dec 30th 2006 8:04PM (Unverified) said

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Vlad,

I actually like the idea, but would make a couple of alterations. I would have two versions of the game... One I would have that you could just buy it outright for say $10 (as it is now). For the other one I would make it free (or a small charge) to download, but then you'd have to pay in GAMERPOINTS to get lives in the game. This would mean that it wasn't working it's way through your wallet... but you still actually had something at stake. If you unlocked all the achievements within only a few gos then you would have actually increased your gamerscore without having to spend any money.

Thoughts?

Posted: Dec 30th 2006 8:44PM (Unverified) said

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The day this happens on the 360 is the day I'll get a gallon of gasoline and incinirate my 360 to no return and then quit buying games altogether.

Posted: Dec 30th 2006 9:30PM (Unverified) said

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Isn't it obvious where he got this idea from? Vlad spits out 'controversial' blog posts whenever Joystiq gives him a quarter.

Posted: Dec 30th 2006 9:46PM (Unverified) said

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Congratulations! You win the "Worst idea of 2006" award, just in time too, only a few more day's left in the year!

Posted: Dec 30th 2006 10:11PM (Unverified) said

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the single issue with it is that microtransactions -- true microtransactions, not this $5 fluff we have on live -- don't work. we're talking sub-$1.00 stuff. exactly what we're talking about here with $0.25 per play.

it's not because it's too expensive.

it's not because the content isn't worth it.

it is, however, the mental transaction cost.

http://shirky.com/writings/fame_vs_fortune.html

think about it. if you could pay for your electricity, water or phone you use in your house with one, steady, contracted payment regardless of usage, wouldn't you?

the only reason microtransaction systems of the past have worked is because we've had no choice.

that's why cell phones in the u.s. come with free long distance. that's why we pay one price for our internet connections instead of "pay-per-minute." that's why cell phones or services like skype and vonage are winning customers from the traditional phone companies.

microtransactions -- real microtransactions -- don't and won't work when there is either a "free" or "pay all at once" alternative.

it has nothing to do with game design or quality and everything to do with the reasons arcades don't exist today in the first place.

m3mnoch.

Posted: Dec 31st 2006 12:10AM mykalson said

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I thought for a moment this post was the hallucination created in the last few seconds of life before succumbing to a massive aneurysm, however I quickly realized this post had to be the work of none other than Cole-dor the Moroninator.

Seriously though, where did you guys find this loser?

Worst. Post. Ever.

Posted: Dec 31st 2006 12:24AM (Unverified) said

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Everytime Vlad types a post, its some inane comment that makes no sense and is the most idiotic pile of crap I ever read. Find a new blogger Joystiq and get this tool off your great website.

Posted: Dec 31st 2006 10:23AM (Unverified) said

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You kids are all noobs. I bet most of you have never felt the thrill of fighting for your spot as king of the hill on a Street Fighter cabinet. This thing is a great idea. While I don't think ALL XBLA games should be this way, I think a coin-op system would be absolutely won-der-ful and playing the game on very few credits would be a lot more meaningful than just pushing the A button to continue.

Great post-- not gonna happen though. People are too conservative!

Posted: Dec 31st 2006 2:36AM mietha said

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Seriously, do you work for Microsoft? That is one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard. The whole concept of BUYING a game is so you don't have to spend money to PLAY it. You want to put in an OPTION, and I mean OPTION, of limiting the number of credits, fine, but if anyone EVER tries that model you propose, they can straight up go **** themselves. Not only will I not support that game, but I will not support any game from that publisher. And for that matter, whichever system it is on, the majority of my money will instantly be going toward the other one. The EA BS is bad enough, but this is FAR beyond even that. There is no "tension" in gauntlet. The game is 25 years old. It's not immersive to anyone. You want tension? Go play a FPS. Gauntlet, and other old-school quarter-munchers, are there for 2 reasons. To be fondly remembered by those that played them back in the day and to offer up a slice of video gaming history for those not old enough to have done so. Their function is NOT to fleece us for quarters as they originally did. Consoles destroyed the arcade primarily for the quarter-munching aspect. I have no desire, and I can't see how anyone could seriously suggest it without a personal stake in it, to go full circle.

Posted: Dec 31st 2006 2:39AM mietha said

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Oh wait, I really should have read who the poster was first. Either it's flamebait or the guy is a complete idiot. Either way I sorry I'm took the time to respond to it. However, my points are still valid and stand.

Posted: Dec 31st 2006 2:41AM (Unverified) said

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Conservative?

This isn't the arcade. That's the point. This is a home console. It's not meant to replicate being in a hot, possible smokey dungeon pumping quarters into a box.

Gauntlet also counts down your health by its very nature. It's completely designed to suck in as many quarters as possible, unless you're ridiculously good at it. And if you've gotten ridiculously good at it, you've likely pumped in well over the $5 asking price for this game on Live Arcade.

As mentioned, there's no infinite continues on Live at all. Your score resets in the game depending on various things you do. Basically, the only thing this infinite continue option lets you do is actually have the option to see every last level if you chose to.

There is such a thing as restraint. If you want to challenge yourself and see how far you can get on a set number of continues, is the game forcing you to not do that?

Obviously not. If you're going to take advantage of a situation a game does not force on you and then turn around and complain about it, what can even be said?

Posted: Dec 31st 2006 3:13AM Slaziman said

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You commenters are seriously retarded. What's wrong with having an extra option, if a small market of people like Vlad will enjoy it? IMHO you should either be able to purchase the full game, OR EARN IT, like a real man, getting a certain score or achievement, using the pay-per-play option. If you're a pussy you could pay the same price you pay now, but someone who's up for a challenge would try and earn it. It would also satisfy people that just want to play the game briefly, and would never pay for the full version.

How can you idiots possibly disagree with that?

Posted: Dec 31st 2006 3:39AM Lekko said

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Instead of quarters, try this:

Use a continue, take a shot.

:D

Posted: Dec 31st 2006 7:13AM (Unverified) said

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Vlad Vlad Vlad thank you for the interesting post. And everyone else thanks for the very funny responses.

Vlad you are just plain wrong. That sense of excitement/awe/fun that is missing from gauntlet and and other arcade games is NOT because consoles do not have quater slots. It's just a fact that you CANNOT bring back ALL those feelings EXACTLY as you first had with arcade games(or old school console or computer games for that matter).

Go ahead and download XBLA games. Buy the Atari and Intellivion collections at walmart. Or do what I do and keep your old consoles and computers(I have Atari 800XL and 520ST comps for nastalgia). BUT you will NEVER BRING BACK THAT LOVING FEELING COMPLETLY.

Is Gauntlet broken? No. What it's missing cannot be replaced. I have to quote you.

"What made the game so fun was the fact that your money was always at stake."

WRONG WRONG WRONG! What made the game fun was the easy dungeon crawling with good graphics and great voice and the best multiplayer fun to be had with 3 of your friends.

I bet my 2 game loving thumbs that if you went back in time and setup 2 Gauntlet machines side by side in 1985. Make one take quarters and the other play for free.
Have the kids play both and then ask them which version is more fun. They would all look at you like "What are you stupid?". They would play Gauntlet for free all day. Then when the arcade closes they would take all those quarters they saved and go watch "Back to the Future" at the movies and call it one of the best days of their lives.

P.S. If you are missing that "essential tension" involving you money so much, take your paycheck to a casino every week for a month. I think when the bills are due and you've blown all your funds on the excitement of 'money gaming' you will be cured of this idea that spending money is somehow part of the fun in games.

Posted: Dec 31st 2006 2:47PM JimJim said

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Are you SERIOUSLY encouraging microtransaction hell on Xbox Live?

Posted: Feb 9th 2008 5:44PM (Unverified) said

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so /this/ is what they mean when they say "Vlad is a troll". As many others have said before this is the most idiotic thing I've ever read. Just becase the game doesn't translate 'tension-wise' well from arcade to console doesn't mean the game is 'broken'. Broken is a beat-em-up where getting hit freezes you for 3 seconds but only gives you 2 seconds of invulnerability. Once again I reiterate but I'm sure 90% of these posts already said: Noone wants to pay quarters at home.

Posted: Dec 31st 2006 10:18AM (Unverified) said

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While I'll concede the point that MAYBE 'renting' a game 20 MS points at a time would be popular for some people...people, who, for example, cannot be bothered to try the demos of all these games... my biggest problem with this 'article' is that flawed ARGUMENT. Vlad seems to be of the mind that in removing the 'tension' factor that comes from slamming quarters into a plastic box while swigging RC Cola and listening to an all Wham! mix-tape, these arcade classics have somehow been let down. I disagree, my primary reason being most early arcade games were little more than interactive CRACK, designed to seperate teenagers from as many quarters as possible.

Someone check on Mr. Cole. I think the underside of his head has been hit for massive damage.

Posted: Dec 31st 2006 10:43AM Starcade said

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Well if you want this to work, don't charge us $5-$15 for a game, charge us .25 for each game play. Hahahah.

Of course that means some games you'll be able to solve before spending $5, while others you'll probably spend more.

Chances are you'll end up being screwed money wise, so buying out the game is probably in the players favor

When I buy a game, I don't want the experience of before I play the game. I just want the game itself.

Posted: Dec 31st 2006 11:00AM JonahFalcon said

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One more point: ever heard of NOT hitting "continue"? I've played the XBLA Gauntlet in single player in which I limited to 4 continues. Once the game is over, I stop.

Innovative concept, huh?

Posted: Dec 31st 2006 11:05AM JonahFalcon said

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"Of course that means some games you'll be able to solve before spending $5, while others you'll probably spend more."

(clearing throat) YOU DON'T SOLVE ARCADE GAMES.

There was no ending to Asteroids, Gauntlet, Rally-X, Time Pilot, Space Invaders, etc. Oh, the game might crash like Pac-Man when you hit level 256, but none of these games had an ending. Their job: force you to use quarters to play over and over. Period. End of story.

And by the way, I played arcade games while they were in their infancy. I love the frequent use of "ad hominem" fallacial arguments here, especially from twits who don't know what they're talking about. I remember getting Asteroids for the 2600 so I DIDN'T HAVE TO PLUNK QUARTERS.

Posted: Dec 31st 2006 11:21AM (Unverified) said

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I think that 20 MS points is WAY too high for what you propose. Why not just 1 or 2 MS points? Aren't we talking about microtransactions? Why not really test it with a true microtransaction? With perhaps 20 for the initial download and 1 / life? I'd willing to go for that. 20 MS pts / $.25 is way too much and killed arcades as the economics outweighed the fun except for the most hardcore players

At one MS point or a couple of cents per life. There will be real money at stake, at the same time, you'll not be reserved at trying again and again. I think that the problem with the MS pts system is that you can't get anything with one or two points. If that's the case, why make it the unit at all?

Just my 1 MS point.

Posted: Dec 31st 2006 12:32PM (Unverified) said

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Vlad,

This is one of the few posts of yours with which I have ever agreed. EXCELLENT idea!

Posted: Dec 31st 2006 12:48PM (Unverified) said

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As someone into collecting classic gaming machines (home and otherwise), I think the biggest problem with owning arcade machines is that you don't really lose your money. Every quarter you put in just comes back to you. This ruins the original experience where personal economics was a major factor. Sure, you can do something creative with your own arcade machine, like have all of the money you spend into your own machine be your "Salvation Army" fund (which is what I do), but even saving up for charity doesn't create the same experience as actually risking your own money for the fun of the game. Plus, as you said, those who are good at classic games might actually go very far on just a few points.

Posted: Dec 31st 2006 12:56PM (Unverified) said

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And for the record, Vlad makes clear in his post that this idea would be an OPTION. In other words, you could either download something that more closely resembles the original arcade experience or you could choose the current LIVE method. He's not suggesting that this be the only choice.

Posted: Jan 27th 2007 2:01AM (Unverified) said

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Yeah honestly.. this guy Vlad and all the people that he is referring to as WE, need to be shot. Go buy a fucking cabinet if you want the true arcade experience you fucking moron.

Posted: Jan 1st 2007 1:46AM (Unverified) said

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you fucktard! Back then we thought it was a good game with cool gfafx and sound but now we see it is a piece of shit. So we won't pay like that you wanker!

Posted: Jan 3rd 2007 11:16AM jdsony said

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I understand his point. The solution sucks though. Here's an idea. The game checks your XBOX live account and figures out by money spend and games played what your disposable income WOULD be and calculates how many quarters you would actually spend on the game.

Posted: Jan 2nd 2007 5:12PM (Unverified) said

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Actually, this dilemma occurred to me a couple years back playing TMNT on MAME. My proposed solution: make it a drinking game. Every time you have to press the coin button, take a drink.

Posted: Jan 4th 2007 4:17PM (Unverified) said

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Vlad, apparently you should just stick to putting up posts about Mario-themed jackets. God forbid there be any discussion about game mechanics and how the arcade experience of yesteryear doesn't exactly translate to the console landscape. Why bother considering the points and furthering any dialogue in a reasonable tone when it's far easier just to name-call?

Do I agree with the entirety of your idea? No, but I certainly believe that Gauntlet without any consequence is a near-pointless experience. However, I'm not sure how I would like a free download that I play with ultra-microtransactions. So, maybe this brings up a discussion of what kinds of games actually belong/work on the Live Arcade service?

Posted: Jan 8th 2007 8:50PM (Unverified) said

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Here is another idea to do micro-transactions for play.

Have people pay to play, but money is paid into a pool, and at the end of a season, the funds are used to pay for a tournament prize and/or invitation to a tournament for top players. These players then play each other. Similar to what goes on with poker.

A simple solution here is to have a mode where players only would play on one "quarter".

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