Xbox Live Indie Games moved to 'Specialty Shops' on new Dashboard, devs not happy

by Mike Schramm on Nov 3rd 2010 8:30AM

The new Xbox 360 Dashboard Update makes the whole interface look smoother and cleaner, but it has rubbed one part of the community the wrong way. Xbox Live Indie Game creators are bummed over on the Microsoft Developer Network forums, as their creations have been relegated to the "Specialty Shops" section of the new Dashboard, hidden behind the Avatar Marketplace and away from most of the game and demo traffic.

Most developers actually sound resigned to their fate, admitting that, while there are a few indie game breakouts, the category in general wasn't a big moneymaker for Microsoft, so it's not surprising it didn't get the spotlight when the update came around. But other devs say it's a chicken-and-the-egg problem, that indie games won't get the sales without the exposure, and hiding them away only dooms them to more failure.

That said, there's no sales data yet off of the new Dashboard; we'll just have to wait and see what effect this new placement has.

[Thanks, Richard!]

Source: MSDN forums

Tags: developers, indie-games, microsoft, xblig, xbox, xbox-360-dashboard, xbox-live-indie-games

Reader Comments (55)

Better go the PSN route....

@Chris DPSN AggieCEO XBLThe Aggi I don't see why this is getting flagged down. PSN is quite supportive of and has a pretty good amount of indie games, and make smaller devs have used the PSN as a springboard to greater success.

I think an important thing for the XBL Indie devs would be to first start making things worth buying. Way too many games on there smack of this "This is the first game I made in programming class in high school".

@wcarnation I think he was being sarcastic. XBox's indie support is WAY better than Playstation's. To get a game on XBox's indie section, you just have to pay $100 and write a game. To get it on Playstation's, you have to register with them as a developer and pass all kinds of craziness.

I could get a game onto the XBox. I have no chance of getting a game onto the PSN.

@WC sarcastic my ass....Sony not only gives them money and marketing support they also don't throw them to the wolves.....

@wcarnation PS3 doesn't have Indie games. They have the equivalent of Xbox Live Arcade games, but nothing where anybody can release a game at any time and not go through a long and expensive release process.

http://www.binarytweed.com/2010/04/xbla-vs-xblig.html

@wcarnation
Unless they have $10,000 to spare for a Sony Development kit sure

@Chris DPSN AggieCEO XBLThe Aggi

from what i hear, xbox is definitely the easier place to get your indie game(s) published. i have a friend who works on games, and while he puts them out on xbl, i don't think he's too pleased with the results. while it is less of a hassle to do it on xbl (and easier to develop for), i think i remember him saying that microsoft wants exactly half of the profits. maybe more, i can't recall, but that's quite a bit for these byte size games that don't make a whole lot to begin with.

@Find

So what does it take to get a PSP Mini into the PSN store? From what I've seen those are basically the closest equivalent to the XBL Indie games, though I'f argue they seem to be of generally higher quality. the Minis also have the bonus of being playable on both the PSP and PS3.

@Chris DPSN AggieCEO XBLThe Aggi

At minimum it costs $100 a year to publish Xbox Indie Games. That doesn't include development costs, which it's you who makes it, so....

At minimum it costs x amount for the Sony dev kit (thousands I believe) like 5000 to be rated by the ESRB, x more thousands for various other things and other things like that.

Xbox Indie games are actually really easy to make.

Bit late with the news.

Microsoft Addresses Indie Games Concerns

http://www.next-gen.biz/news/microsoft-addresses-indie-games-concerns

@FiB3R wait....I click the link thinking its an article from maybe yesterday or monday.....but its from TODAY!?!?

dude.....they are what....a few hours late? #Getoffit

@Chris DPSN AggieCEO XBLThe Aggi

Try reading.

My link is MS's response to this story, that is 2 days old.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/31298/Indie_Developers_Troubled_Over_Xbox_360_Dashboard_Update.php

Apology accepted.

Did anyone actually FIND indie games from the interface? My experience has been that I found the games by word-of-mouth, mostly from sites like this one. Putting the indie games into a dark corner of the interface isn't going to change that. The people that look through those games will still do so, and the rest of us will hear about the good ones from them.

@WC : That's exactly the problem! There's great indie games out there---I did a "Best Indie Games" column for MTV Multiplayer for a while---but they're just too hard to find. And burying the service doesn't make it any easier...

I couldn't agree with wcarnation more, there is so much CRAP on the xbox live indie games section that they don't deserve a better position.

The whole acceptance process for indie games need to be reworked, it's not as bad as the 90s but, c'mon.

@Shigster

There's a lot of great games too. Miner Dig Dee, Beet Hazard and Zombie Mansion to name a few. There's so many games you can buy for $1 that you can dump hours into that I don't see why it would be shafted. I have about as many Indie Arcade games as I do Xbox Live Arcade games...

@Shigster
There are a few good games, but yeah, most are crap. Let's be honest.

@anoffday exactly. if they made better games, they'd get more recognition.

Lame.

Lol Microsoft says cause people have avatars the indie games are in the right place more at 11. I am not unhappy with the change though I like a place to browse the indie games without all the clutter of the pop titles and dora the explorer getting in the way.

I don't think the new interface looks better at all. It is blocky and ugly.

I am an XBLIG dev (one with honour who refuses to put out massagers etc)
While I appreciate the improvements that have been made - its position has cost me dearly. On the first days sales - I've seen my sales drop to half what they were a week ago.

What MS has done is disgusting in my eyes. Sure theres a lot of crap, but theres some good there too. and hell, up till now, ive sold 30k units at $10 a pop - it cant be all that bad. but now? I think i will be moving to iphone.

@madNinjaSkillz
Dude I love Indie games on XBL. But where the tab is has no affect on if I purchase or not. I find out about games from the community (i.e. Joystiq) and that causes me to look at other titles. Another reason I love them is because they are cheap... if an Indie game is more than 5 bucks (400 points) it is a no-buy. I'd love to play your game madNinjaSkillz, as I am sure your programing is as good as your shuriken abilities, but not for $10.

People are acting as if they scrapped the whole thing. According to MS their data says more people are buying avatar stuff. So wouldn't it be nice if everyone that bought Aavatar stuff bought Indie games?

I have to admit I haven't ever bothered to look at the indie games - even when they were in full view. I just get the impression they're all Flash based titles that were littering the internet a couple of years ago. I could totally be wrong of course. That whole Avatar store is ridiculous. It's like Barbie dress up for dudes and no sir, I don't like it. I am not going to pay $4 for a virtual t-shirt when I can buy a real one for $3.00. Besides I've heard Microsoft has virtual Chinese children making those virtual t-shirts in a virtual sweatshop. Hopefully Tron will shut that shit down!

Let me qualify that last statement with "I have played Braid" and the other good indie title which I can't remember the name of.

@Milf Biggenson Braid is an Arcade game. The Indie games are completely different.

@Petebot330
Uh.....How? They're both games made by INDEPENDENT developers.

BRAID wasn't an Indie game, but it was/is great.

The sad truth is that, though there have been a few worthwhile Indie games, the vast majority of them are vibrators or generic zombie shooters. Sadly, the good games get buried beneath the crap. As there isn't a resource for Indie game reviews, only the very few that get mentioned on a site like Joystiq are going to get any love from the public. They also need some sort of category system so that you can filter out the vibrator "games" and only see the types of games in which you are interested.

I also think that Indie games won't ever have a chance to compete with the Xbox Arcade games without having full access to the graphics and processing power of the console. They're always going to look half-assed in comparison to the Arcade titles.

@geekzapoppin I totally concur that a vast majority of Indy games are indeed total crap. Some because as you mentioned they don't have access to all the systems resources ..... others because they are total crap.

I also fully agree that there needs to be some ratings system and a way to filter through them.

@geekzapoppin

Braid is an indie game, just not one published in the Indie Game section.

@geekzapoppin
Yeah, Braid was def. an indie game. Indie games isn't a phrase coined by MS to refer non arcade games. They're basically games made by small companies of a few or sometimes even one guy. Braid is indie, as well as Super Meat Boy.

@geekzapoppin

i agree. most of the indie games i have tried were crappy. i thought twin blades would be ok because i generally liked the art style, but once i pushed a few buttons and realized that's all there was to the entire game, it got really old really quick.

if i recall correctly, that dishwasher game actually started out as being in the indie department, but microsoft decided to release it as a full-blown xbla game. so there's always that possibility for publication. it's hard to really complain about indie games, because, although most of them suck, it really does allow just about anyone to give it a shot and maybe even make a little scratch. i think that's pretty cool. they could have just as easily not even had an indie marketplace.

@Baap
Cant really do that due to the fact that XBLIG games are not rated

Sorry but I really don't see how having Indie games under the Games & Demos tab was such an issue.

Unless large developers started pitching a fit about being lumped in with freelance and small time developers.

Your looking at a virtual marketplace that has no physical restrictions meaning that it doesn't cost them any more or any less to have them as a submenu of games ...... again unless some large developing firms pitched a fit.

makes sense to me, that one extra press on the dpad for me.. just want to hide the community, video & music marketplaces which I have no use for...

On PS3 I want to hide Home

lol they really expect exposure with with the 360 it a waste of time. they better of designing pc first then porting their creation to console. Microsoft will not promote indie games unless there popular.

I should start a class.
"Proper grammar for trolls and flamers"

I'll make millions.

@BlackedOut You're awesome, dude. took the words right out of my mouth.

Such a shame, Indie games had potential is MS was interested in nurturing talent. Of course the category didn't produce then level of talent both MS and customers were perhaps expecting.

I still buy Indie games from XBL, there are some excellent games to be had for cheap.

Rather than encourage all these developers to compile their games for Windows Phone 7, Microsoft moves them to the back of the bus.

Sure, most of them are crap, but so are iPhone games. This could have given WP7 a big head start. If Android hardly has games, WP7 sure won't.

Psp Minis are more like ports of iPhone games than an equivalent to XBLA... :/

@Xupmatoih

Have you been to the Indie Game section? There are some good ones scattered around, but most are pretty bad. I mean, come one, there's tons of "massage" apps in there. That's the XBL Indie Game equivalent of the Apple App Store fart apps. I'd argue that the Indie Games are as much like iPhone games as Minis.

@Chris DPSN AggieCEO XBLThe Aggi

What's this? Chris blindly taking yet another one of his many uninformed shots at MS while providing misinformation leaning towards Sony? Why is no one surprised?

As some of the others have pointed out, you can get an XBLA dev license for $100; compared to Sony's astronomical dev kit and royalty price. When we talk about "Indie" devs on this particular issue, we are talking about the single or dual-member teams of guys simply making games in their basement with no publisher affiliation or backing. For example the guys who make N+ or Super Stardust HD, while considered an Independent developer, aren't comparable to the scale that we're actually talking about.

Honestly, this is tragic.

One of the big strengths of the Xbox has always been it's PC-like architecture making it extremely friendly for programmers. Indie Games was a natural outgrowth of that---a way to bring the glorious anarchy of PC gaming to a console, albeit in a walled-garden sort of way. This could have led to the XBox becoming like the PC---a constant source of obscure delights that can suddenly turn into breakout hits (i.e. Minecraft).

But MS has been so dodgy about supporting the service, it just can't get traction. A number of critics have tried to wake people up---I did a "Best Indie Games" column for MTV Multiplayer for a while, IGN has their regular picks---but it just can't seem to get traction, perhaps because console gamers are a bit more passive than PC gamers anyway. Le sigh.

I kinda like the change, it makes the marketplace cleaner. No more having to look at ugly box art for massage games.

Microsoft let too much low quality stuff onto the indie marketplace. I know it may be beginner programmers ans whatnot, but there should still be a quality filter. I can go to Newgrounds.com and find stuff just as good if not better than a lot of the stuff in the indie marketplace.

@Baap
Umm.... They are available in the UK.

I really like the Indie Marketplace... I've bought 10 or more titles from there, there's some real good hidden gems to be found. Yes there's a bunch of very poor titles, but there's lots of great ones too.

As someone that checks out A LOT of the Indie games (and buys many), I don't understand why all the games aren't grouped together.

What's so special about Indie games? Games is games is games.

If they were concerned about all the crapware that does end up in the Indie list, do something about THAT PROBLEM. The solution to poor games is not hiding them.

Really wish we had the Indie Games section here in Ireland. We don't even get Last.fm like in the UK.

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Xbox Live Indie Games moved to 'Specialty Shops' on new Dashboard, devs not happy

Reader Comments (55)

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 8:40AM Chris DPSN AggieCEO XBLThe Aggi said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 9:06AM wcarnation said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 9:15AM WC said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 9:30AM Chris DPSN AggieCEO XBLThe Aggi said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 9:32AM rayonic said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 9:54AM Find said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 10:19AM Liquidfingers said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 10:23AM Vidikron said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 3:25PM Tiptup300 said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 8:52AM FiB3R said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 9:37AM Chris DPSN AggieCEO XBLThe Aggi said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 2:13PM FiB3R said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 9:14AM WC said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 11:21AM ThatFuzzyBastard said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 9:14AM Shigster said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 9:47AM PlatinumSkeet said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 11:22AM anoffday said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 1:03PM CharlieDanger82 said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 9:15AM WiNGSPANTT from TopTierTacticsco said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 9:15AM paper said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 9:33AM Hak Foo said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 9:34AM madNinjaSkillz said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 1:18PM zigg said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 9:38AM Milf Biggenson said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 9:40AM Milf Biggenson said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 10:36AM Petebot330 said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 11:48AM supersonic124 said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 9:55AM geekzapoppin said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 10:01AM Scuffles said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 10:28AM Vidikron said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 11:25AM anoffday said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 2:24PM Liquidfingers said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 9:57AM Find said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 9:58AM Scuffles said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 10:01AM Mazrael said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 10:01AM bargaingamer said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 11:06AM BlackedOut said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 1:07PM CharlieDanger82 said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 10:08AM Tuxy79 said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 10:22AM benheck said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 3:40PM Xupmatoih said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 5:34PM Vidikron said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 10:25AM Outsider524 said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 11:24AM ThatFuzzyBastard said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 11:25AM supersonic124 said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 11:31AM Lerkero said

Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 11:31AM B0FF said

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Posted: Nov 3rd 2010 12:20PM Morning Toast said

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