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Posted: Nov 5th 2010 11:03PM KillaPat said

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I like blizzard less and less
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Posted: Nov 5th 2010 11:13PM Drakkenfyre said

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For?

These people were SELLING a program that let you cheat online.

Next time you go bitching about someone cheating in MW2, or whatever online console game of your choice were people are cheating, remember these people. Who not only spread the cheat, they actually sold it.
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Posted: Nov 5th 2010 11:17PM KillaPat said

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@Drakkenfyre
It is the way they go about doing things lately. I am not supporting the creators Glider. But lately Blizzard's move to stop things like this have started causing trouble for normal players.
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Posted: Nov 5th 2010 11:18PM KillaPat said

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@KillaPat
And trust me, I am well aware that cheating is a problem on online games, I have played Counter-strike in some form or another for a decade.
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Posted: Nov 5th 2010 11:30PM Drakkenfyre said

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They told people StarCraft 2's single player and multiplayer were closely tied together, for record keeping.

They warned people not to use cheats.

They used cheats in single player, they got banned.

Whatever you do in single player shows up in your multiplayer profile. So you can pad your profile by adding a bunch of cheat wins. Half of the games Achievements are in single player. They were warned not to cheat.

They cheated, they got busted, they got banned.

I have no sympathy for them.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 12:35AM KillaPat said

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@Drakkenfyre
If by telling everyone beforehand you mean hidden in the small text, then yes, maybe. But again, I am not angry that they banned those people either, just the way they went about the whole thing again. I know when I started up the StarCraft 2, it didn't say "you will be banned for using cheats in the single player." The common purchaser of this or any other game is not going to read the forums or the 40 pages of agreement text. I am sure you didn't read it either.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 1:00AM golobulus said

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@Drakkenfyre why you talking about people who sold it? shouldn't you be talking about the idiots who buy it? and i'm speaking in general terms...
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 2:31AM KillaPat said

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@Drakkenfyre
Guess I should have known better than to put how I feel about something on the internet... Oh well, back to only writing random little attempts at comedy instead, and then seeing that Ezio has already posted the exact same thing 5 seconds before.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 8:56AM Drakkenfyre said

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I was in the beta for months. I did read it. In fact they announced it when people started using them.

Apparantly you weren't playing the original StarCraft, or Diablo, or Diablo 2, where cheating was rampant. You couldn't even play a legit game of Diablo 1 where someone didn't come in with 1 million HP, and killed everything on 1 shot. Even Diablo 2 suffered from cheaters.

So no, I don't care these guys got banned, even if it was single player. Because more than likely they would also use it in multiplayer.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 11:38AM heyo007 said

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@KillaPat
Just because someone doesn't bother to read the Agreement terms before they agree, doesn't make them immune from them. Ignorance is not an excuse.
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Posted: Nov 8th 2010 7:15AM Milky1985 said

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@heyo007

Thats assuming they read them, all you need to do is get someone else ot hit the ok button and that person has agreed to them , not you.

They can ban the account and stuff but not go after you personally, you never agreed to anything.

Hell my cat has signed a eula if clicking on OK means you read it. (stupid thing was attacking the mouse :/)
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Posted: Nov 8th 2010 10:52AM Opuelas said

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@KillaPat I'm sorry you don't feel the need to defend your position...that's the expected result when you put your opinion out on a public forum.
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Posted: Nov 5th 2010 11:13PM pluupy said

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"Anyone who has played PC games online knows cheating is a real, and at times rampant, problem. So much so that people are actually deterred from playing online at times."

This cannot be stressed enough. But, such is interweb life.
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Posted: Nov 5th 2010 11:44PM tenacioustoaster said

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@pluupy
It irritates me that they dont allow single player cheats though. I understand the reasoning. I just think it was poor decision making.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 4:53AM Pohtaytoh said

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@tenacioustoaster

They DO have and allow singleplayer cheats. Only with ingame codes like in sc1 rather than 3rd party hacks.

You just can't get achievements for it.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 7:02AM Neofalcon43 said

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@Pohtaytoh

You can even go farther than using the built-in cheat codes. You can open up any single player mission in the editor and modify it and even upload the modified mission to battle.net for others to play. I find it hard to believe that there's any legitimate use for third-party cheating programs when they've given you the tools to modify the game in any way you'd like...
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Posted: Nov 8th 2010 10:53AM Opuelas said

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@Neofalcon43 Yeah; the only cheats I've heard people use were for boosting single player achievements. If they want to cheese a level they can do so easily with the in-game cheat codes.
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Posted: Nov 5th 2010 11:35PM Premature ejaculation man said

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Very interesting discussion. Its strange for me to support both sides of the arguement.

...Like...Who do I yell at?
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 12:06AM bryanc10 said

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This one of the reason I do not bother playing multiplayer games. Cheating has become so rampant that it takes the fun out of playing against other players. But with that said I still want the right to cheat in a single player game, I just think that once you have learned how to use the game as developed by the programmers I would like to have mods and cheats just to play around with.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 12:26AM Octolips said

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@bryanc10
I totally agree, cheating has ruined PC multiplayer for me.

I would like to remind everyone that Blizzard has included a lot of cheat codes for Starcraft 2 (which you can find on gamfaqs). Using them will not get you banned however they will disable the achievements. Most of the people who used 3d party cheat software did so to gain the most prestigious player portraits which are linked to the hardest single player achievements.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 12:53AM NiGhTHaWk830 said

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Lost in your (otherwise very well-written) article is that

1) In SC2, Blizzard provides ways to cheat in the single-player game that turn off achievements. E.g. you can use cheat codes to get lots of resources or have free upgrades or turn on god mode. So Blizzard is not opposed to cheating per se. What the hackers are using is a trainer, which allows you to customize your gameplay in ways that the default cheats do not allow you to. I don't know why Blizzard has sued over these trainers, which existed back in the days of Brood War but Blizzard didn't sue back then. Why now?

2) I don't, and no one should, care how someone wants to play his game in an offline, single-player context. Multiplayer is a different story, because hacking your game can ruin others' experiences. However, from looking at various forum threads about the hacks, one of the main purposes of the hacks is to unlock all the single-player-based achievements quickly and effortlessly, which are displayed online for other players to see. What do you call this? It isn't purely single-player...but it certainly isn't multiplayer in the traditional competitive sense. I don't care whether someone hacked to get points to display on an online profile, but I can see how someone who legitimately earned the points through gameplay would be a little peeved that this other guy used hacks to get the points cheaply. That is a little gray to me.

Anyway, this was another great read, as usual. Keep up the good work.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 2:10AM mjp19xx said

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Why do people care if some people get achievements by cheating? It is simply childish. Achievements have no tangible value. If you get so upset about people getting them by cheating, they amount to little more than a virtual pissing contest. They can give you something to work for that helps you enjoy the game, or you can cheat just because you want the points or rewards. What difference does it make? In both instances someone is using an intangible achievement system to enhance their enjoyment of a game. It's worse than a kid getting upset because the kid sitting next to him got an extra gold star on her test.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 2:48AM Coleo said

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@mjp19xx

Blizzard intended the achievements to be earned as an indication of skill and determination. If cheaters can obtain them easily, it takes away the public opinion of their value. Sure some people don't care, but those who do will want others to know their achievements are legit without argument.

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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 3:39AM mjp19xx said

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@Coleo
If you are arguing over achievements in a video game or if you are so concerned over public opinion of your gaming skills based off of achievements, you likely have other issues in your life that you should be addressing.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 10:26AM Jack Kevorkian said

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@megapixel The guy who paid 50 dollars for his copy of the game shouldn't give one shit about Blizzard's investment or their sanctimonious view of achievements.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 12:46PM Funkmaster General said

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@mjp19xx

Does that same logic not apply to those that cheat to gain the achievements?
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Posted: Nov 8th 2010 10:56AM Opuelas said

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@mjp19xx Blizzard designed their product to use the achievement system to promote different, more challenging types of play and contribute to the online community of the game. People who cheat this system tear up the design as well, and it's not surprising Blizzard works so hard to maintain the standard of the product they designed.
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Posted: Nov 9th 2010 12:45PM NecroSen said

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@mjp19xx
Your opinion on the worth of the SCII achievement system is moot: Blizzard created it as a way for players who DO care about achievements to add value to their gaming experience. Just because YOU don't care about them does not give you the right to strip that value away from other paying consumers of the product.

Bash it all you like and laugh at people you think have a "problem" because they like achievements, but people do see value in them and they're not going away. Blizzard's actions with these suits are simply protecting that value.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 8:05PM taker42 said

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Too bad since once the guy agreed to blizz t&c, his opinion does not mean crap
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 10:48AM SanctusSS said

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@Nighthawk

on A) I have to agree, Blizzard has been putting hardcoded cheats into the system since the first Warcraft, I still remember 'It's a good day to die' from when I used to play back in the day.

on B) They sue now because the stakes have gone up. Imagine if WoW became rampant with hacks and mods. The economy on the servers would crash, it would become pointless for those who play if your tank somehow has 80,000k life. People have invested alot more into Blizzards games and thus our expectations as gamers have gone up as well. The last thing Blizzard wants is to have it's WoW community or any of it's community trying to lynch them because we are giving them how many billions of dollars a month and they can't provide a legitimate game experience. So, I would say they are justified in suing to prevent the online aspect from being corrupted.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 12:58PM Haboobee said

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@SanctusSS I praise you!
You have just described the way the US economy is rigged with the FED, IMF and WorldBank. You just used WOW game terminology to do it.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 12:14PM smoothy said

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People have been using single player cheat devices since...forever. Nintendo lost to Game Genie because the judge didn't see any harm in that sort of thing...so, you're wrong.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 1:20PM Acosta02 said

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@smoothy

Game genies don't effect online games.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 1:41PM Hank Hill said

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@smoothy Using a game genie on a singleplayer nintendo game is completely different to this.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 6:12PM Vidikron said

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@Hank Hill

But Blizzard banned people using these hack in their single player games. That's not directly related to this case, but they still crossed a line that shouldn't have been crossed by doing that and is very much like using a Game Genie.
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Posted: Nov 9th 2010 12:53PM NecroSen said

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@Vidikron
Not quite. SCII has an offline, non-Battle.net component in which you could likely use any hack you like. Once you sign into Battle.net, it doesn't matter if you're playing a "singleplayer" game: you're still signed into an online system that carries with it a license agreement and code of conduct.

If you sign into Battle.net and use hacks, you violate the terms of Battle.net and are subject to being banned from Battle.net, NOT from playing the game in the offline "guest" mode.

Game Genie, on the other hand, is the same as jailbreaking, which has been ruled perfectly legal.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 8:00PM Erron Kelly said

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@Mark Methenitis

As if so often said on the internet, "I'm not a lawyer". But your closing argument seems to assume that Blizzard doesn't offer up robust game modification tools.

This couldn't be further from the truth. The world builder that Blizzard offers in StarCraft 2 is arguably one of the most in-depth engines seen to date. At any given point, a player can log in and browse through the Custom Games section and instantly have dozens upon dozens of unique game experiences, created by people not in the employ of Blizzard and created without modification of the actual code. Prime examples of this are "Ling Ling Rocket!" [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N34zl3o5lTQ ] and "Battlefield Egypt" [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2KzABG26PE ], both games created within the bounds of the EULA and both vastly different experiences than your standard SC2.

I would argue the fact that within moments of loading the game any individual has both the option and opportunity to "reasonably experiment with the product and create new variations of play for personal enjoyment so long as it doesn't interfere with the game experience for other players", without ever crossing the line and modifying the actual game code.
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Posted: Nov 8th 2010 12:03PM MarkMethenitis said

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@Erron Kelly

Erron (and anyone else who made note of this),

My closing doesn't specifically address the built in cheats in StarCraft II because I still (unfortunately) haven't had a chance to play anything other than the beta. It was speaking to the bigger picture, since not all PC game developers include these kind of systems but any could use the rationale in this case to pursue cheaters.
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Posted: Nov 6th 2010 9:58PM mjp19xx said

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I guess it's not okay to express disdain for Blizzard's policies. Blizzard is just another software company that likes to exploit the fact that you are not buying their software, but a license to use their software. I simply don't like closed systems, and I like to at least feel like I own the product I spent my hard earned money on. It's sad when you have to find cracked versions of games that you actually purchased in order to avoid being hassled. That last sentence goes double for Ubisoft.

Before someone says something about Blizzard protecting their online community, let me remind you that SC 2 must be authenticated online, so there is no option to play without encountering their online system at some point. At least Valve actually lets people host their own games, and you can have hosts that allow cheats openly and those that don't. I wish things had not gotten this way. I would really like to play Diablo 3, but I don't want to be told how to enjoy it.
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Posted: Nov 7th 2010 1:10AM berna said

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@mjp19xx

Why do you guys like to play with cheats?? :\

Isn't what Blizzard is doing the best for all true gamers?
So Blizzard is trying to protect their players who have spent their money on their product, i don't see whats wrong with this..

Isn't the game editor**, that comes with the game, good enough?
**Its so awesome that you can create anything, from a car racing game to tetris. So tell me if your cheats beat that!

I love SC2, i play it multyplayer (silver/gold player) and single player where i just beat the game in brutal (hardest difficulty) i worked soo bad for that achievement, and it was EPIC! feels so great to complete something that was soo hard but you did it and now you can show it to your friends and rivals.

That said, tell how i would feel if some one had that same achiv just by cheating? I would nerdrage soo bad.

It's just unfair.
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Posted: Nov 8th 2010 12:03PM Teletheus said

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@mjp19xx The simple fact is that you don't own the software when you buy it. You're licensing it. If you were buying it, you could put it on any computer you wanted and share it however you wanted. Purchasing a game like SC2 is more akin to buying a ticket to a football game (or a hockey game, or whatever you prefer). Owning the software would be like owning the football team. The software (and the team) provide a communal experience that a lot of people can enjoy in a similar fashion, but only the actual owner gets to exercise total control over the code (or the roster/coaches/etc.).
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Posted: Nov 7th 2010 7:07PM Drakkenfyre said

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The ironic thing is, I bet half the people complaining about them protecting their game, if someone popped up with a way to cheat on XBox Live, and instantly give themselves gamerscores for any games they play, say MW2, and instantly give themselves all Achievements for single player, and multiplayer, they would scream.
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Posted: Nov 8th 2010 10:33AM Glad said

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@Drakkenfyre
Someone take the comma key off this guy's keyboard.
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Posted: Nov 8th 2010 6:27PM Kashmeer said

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Lol glad....so....many.....comma splices
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Posted: Nov 9th 2010 1:14PM NecroSen said

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I feel as though there is some confusion here about SCII's "singleplayer" mode. The confusion being that, as far as I can tell, there are 3 distinct gameplay modes:

1. Multiplayer: Players login to Battle.net and match up against other players. Achievements are tracked for multiplayer matches.
2. Singleplayer: Players login to Battle.net and play the singleplayer campaign. An internet connection is still required and achievements are tracked for campaign.
3. Guest: Players do not login to Battle.net, but can play the singleplayer campaign anyway. No internet connection is required and achievements are not tracked.

Everyone's complaining that Blizzard is banning people for cheating in singleplayer, and when they say "singleplayer" what they think they mean is an offline mode such as the Guest mode. This is not the case: players using the singleplayer mode are still signing into Battle.net, and are thus subject to the Battle.net terms and conditions.

As far as I can tell, people could go and hack the game to their hearts' content if they simply did it in Guest mode. As soon as you login to Battle.net, even to play singleplayer, you have to abide by those terms and conditions, which include not hacking the game.

The people involved here did just that: they logged in to Battle.net, used a hack program, and violated the Battle.net terms. Thus, ban-worthy.

Blizzard themselves have said "hack at your own risk". This is A) a dare for people to try hacking multiplayer and B) likely an indication that you should NOT login to Battle.net if you want to hack, because they will see it. On the other hand, if you DON'T login, there's no way they can tell what you're doing.

TL;DR: Hacking while logged into Battle.net is the issue here. If you want to hack, hack the Guest mode. That's all.
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