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Reader Comments (66)

Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:04PM Xoonaka said

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I think it's true, all cameras are pretty broken... must be amplified in a Wii game though, with no quick second analog stick camera controls to fix the issue. Most games I pretty constantly adjust the camera as I play, it's almost second nature... not sure how that would go on this title.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:07PM Enosoma said

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@Xoonaka

Grand Theft Auto Series:

You always need to have the right thumbstick tilted slightly downward, if you enjoy driving AND seeing whats in front of you, at the same time.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:14PM Misfit Toy said

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@Enosoma

Agreed. You'd think the programmers would play test that...
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:31PM FraGNeM said

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@Enosoma

I figured I was the only one who did that, hah.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:48PM FriedConsole said

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@Xoonaka

Agreed. I have never seen a 3D platformer not get critizised for its camera in a review. Its hard to tell if the camera is really bad or not while reading a review because some cameras are really bad and some aren't a big deal to fix every once and a while.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:49PM GMUHistorian said

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@FraGNeM

No way, I think most people play GTA with the camera tilted a little bit downward when driving.

I agree with Xoonaka about the Wii's control scheme perhaps making the camera issue a bit more than it is on other consoles. Except for Mario Galaxy all of the other examples posted so far of good cameras are of games on other consoles.

I'm not saying that it's the Wii's "problem" though. If Spector or any other developer are going to make a console exclusive game its their job to figure out how to make the console's specs work the best in their game.

I also don't know why Spector's trying to hit back at reviewers. It doesn't serve a purpose and it just makes him look like a jerk. Epic Mickey seems to be selling well right now (#5 in video games at Amazon; no NPD numbers yet.)
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 3:37PM JasonA said

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@Enosoma

Though it was only me also.

Can't understand how they made the default camera view when driving so horrible, so many times.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 5:04PM Mr Khan said

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@Xoonaka

The only limitation the Wii brings to the picture is that it can't be moved dynamically as easily, but that's not the camera's main problem in that game at all

90% of the time when you really need the camera to move, it refuses to. In all of those cases, even the first person mode fails.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:05PM Pugnaciousturtle said

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Wow. You stay classy, Warren.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:36PM SimpleGame said

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@Pugnaciousturtle

Maybe we're holding with Wii wrong.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 4:44PM Duke said

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@Pugnaciousturtle
Seemed like a real odd way of handling the critique to me.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 5:01PM AudioAce said

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@Duke i guess this is kinda like when a kid asks you to find the spaceship in a macaroni picture...but its all just macaroni and the kid gets mad cause you misunderstand his genius.........something like that
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Posted: Dec 13th 2010 2:42PM Haggard said

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@Pugnaciousturtle
I'm sure he's a great guy and all but he did what I can't stand in arguing a point. "It's not for me to say that critics are wrong, absolutely not" is not a compatible way to preface "they misunderstood my game".
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:06PM Enosoma said

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Misunderstood?

I haven't played the game yet myself, but honestly, I'm thinking that Mr. Spector misunderstood what gamers want in an intuitive, fluid, functional camera system.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:06PM RDX said

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Please, just don't. Defending your game like that just makes you look silly. I'm getting flashbacks of Tony Hawk and Ride.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 3:07PM ironneko said

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@RDX

Or Lair...
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 4:09PM Shockwave said

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@ironneko

Ahh Lair. The crappy flight game for PS3 we all wished was Rogue Squadron 4, but wasn't.

I remember that booklet. What was it? The reviewers guide or something or other. Telling reviewers how they were idiots, and how everything they hated was actually meant to be like that, so it was good.

Factor 5. The only company that proved that releasing sequel after sequel and not original IPs is a good thing, not a bad thing.
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Posted: Dec 9th 2010 3:07AM Evin said

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@RDX
Or the iPhone 4
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:07PM jrr said

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This is almost as bad as when Marc Ecko came to the defense of his Getting Up game. Reviewers must still be "slaves to the code," it seems.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:07PM Drakkenfyre said

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Why is it, no matter how good a game is, or how bad a part of it is, the developers always say "People misunderstand it" ?

I haven't played the game, so I can't say how bad the camera is, but if it's bad, it's bad. We have had 15 years of 3D games now, and we know what a bad camera looks and feels like. Don't try to pawn it off on people not "getting it". If the camera makes itself a pain in the ass, it makes itself a pain in the ass.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:08PM Ezio Auditore da Firenze said

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These reviewers play games for a living. I'm fairly certain they can tell the difference between a good camera, and a bad camera.

Shifting the blame for your own shortcomings onto reviewers is just ridiculous.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:08PM sammo21 said

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I've never had a problem with the camera in any of the God of War games,.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:16PM sonicspike41 said

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@sammo21

I also don't remember the camera being this bad in the Splinter Cell games or the Prince of Persia games. Even MegaMan Legends has a decent/good camera if I remember right.

If I actually went through my games collection I could probably find tons of other examples too.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:10PM Deschain said

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He is making some really stupid excuses and arguments. That is something you never want to hear from a developer. How about acknowledging where you screwed up and learn from it. No one cares what other games do or what you think it hard.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:12PM BlueRajasmyk said

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As a developer, this is exactly the sort of attitude I despise. For shame, Warren.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:15PM blueskyv201 said

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Try breaking the camera in God of War, ya twat.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:39PM FraGNeM said

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@blueskyv201

You're right that the camera does mostly work in those games, but it does so at the great expense of destroying any way for a player to meaningfully influence their view of the game world.

They can do some really neat things with the camera rigging, but sometimes (most of the time) I want to be able to view the game world more directly.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:21PM Deegan said

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Why can't people just admit "sorry, we messed up. Our bad." It's actually a lot classier.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:27PM Pugnaciousturtle said

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@Deegan Fool! Warren Spector doesn't "mess up"! Everyone just misunderstands his genius!
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:22PM Mmmmz said

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What an asshat.

There's nothing more we consumers like than being told we're wrong, we're the idiots, we have no idea what we're doing.

Man up you asshat.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 4:47PM ouenwoof said

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@Mmmmz

When did he ever call gamers "idiots", or even allude to saying something like that?

You guys are getting really worked up about a knee-jerk reaction to a common criticism.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:29PM Jack Kevorkian said

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Bayonetta has the perfect camera.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:30PM Roto13 said

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Someone needs to play Mario Galaxy.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:32PM Primate said

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I would have respected him if he did say that they didn't get it right and next time would be better, but this... I don't know what to think. I've forgiven games for having flaws and I love Epic Mickey (the girlfriend WAY more than me), but man... that camera... it has caused me to actually yell at it. I don't know if I have ever done that before in a game. The biggest disappointment out there is that there are games which are horrible but have decent camera control.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:34PM swooded said

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Protip: If everyone agrees on a problem with your game, except you, *they* are not the ones doing it wrong.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 3:10PM Acosta02 said

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@swooded

That's dangerous logic...
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:34PM Arkanaloth said

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Like most here I can think of quite a few 3rd person games with stellar cam control. I think this guy's just making excuses. Then he goes on to make an absolute statement, saying he can break the camera in "any" game "ever" made.

The validity of such a statement is in doubt, and even if it *is* true the real question is how easy or difficult it is to "break" said cameras.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 3:15PM TheManEl said

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@Arkanaloth

Can he break the camera in Minesweeper?

I think not.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:35PM greycolumbus said

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This is a disappointing read.

Warren Spector has been giving the vibe that the game was polished and structurally sound. Mario Galaxy and Sunshine would get brought in conversations of the game prerelease. Both those games managed the limitations of a third person platformer with a smart, dynamic camera. I would have thought if there was one thing to ape from Mario, it would have been the basic mechanics.

Instead, the camera just feels lazy and at times simply broken.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:42PM Cleric said

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@greycolumbus

and yet the closest thing to a Mario Galaxy that's third party is a Sonic game!

What a weird world we live in these days.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:44PM Coldplay619 said

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I never had camera problems in games where they give you complete control of the camera like in Epic Mickey :X
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:48PM Cleric said

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@Coldplay619

Me either. I feel like I'm missing out
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 2:50PM Deezul AwT said

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Nothing bothers me more than when a dev says, "You're playing the game wrong."
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 3:05PM Hawaii Jeff said

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Pathetic whining.

The camera issues would have come up all the time during playtesting, but they chose not to do anything to make it better.

They would have had a discussion about it, and determined "eh, it's good enough to ship"

They justly deserve the criticism.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 3:15PM The Albatross said

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The Camera in Epic Mickey is supposedly pretty broken [I haven't played the game]. Explaining this away by saying that every 3rd person game has a broken camera doesn't work, because few reviews universally pan a game for its camera... where as, every review did so for Epic Mickey.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 3:24PM TheManEl said

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Well, sure, my patient lost his leg, but he's alive, isn't he? This was a pretty hard operation. And look at Dr. Johnson over there, he didn't do that great of a job either. I'm sure I can give his patient his broken leg back if I try. Give me 30 seconds and I will break his leg.

Everybody gets it wrong. It's just a question of how close to right do you get it.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 3:42PM Johnnynumber5 is powered by cell said

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Can't stand someone who projects their insecurities on other people. I'd have respect for him if he had said "we did our best to implement a functioning camera and obviously we came up short. We'll learn from this and do better next time." instead of ... The camera doesn't suck, YOU suck.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 4:03PM antiZER0 said

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Mr. Spector, that's programmer bullshit. If your programmers can't design something don't say, "I cannot design for your requirements so your to blame." Everyone's more aware of the real cause for bad design, recycled code, and lazy evaluation and playtesting.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 4:08PM KobaltKode said

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Man I am kinda disappointed in everyone's responses...A good chunk of the people commenting, probably complain about customers they work for. It's really easy to sit back and criticize someone else's work from a distance knowing very little if anything about how it is done or the level of difficulty involved.

I understand that the way he went about it wasn't very tactful...But at least he has the guts to stand behind his team and defend his work. the responses are just as "classy" as you seem to think he is.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2010 4:29PM Shockwave said

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@KobaltKode

We may criticize customers we work for, but not to their face. This is just freakin' rude.
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