During the GDC "micro-talk" panel, God of War and Twisted Metal creator David Jaffe declared that console makers should cap the number of bug-fix patches publishers can release for their games. "Hardware manufacturers, I feel, should only allow one to four updates to the software per game per year," he said, drawing a huge round of applause. "None of them should come within the first one to two months the game is shipping," he added.
Jaffe was speaking to what he sees is an industry-wide need to cut down on the amount of time it takes console gamers to actually get into playing their games -- the main topic of his five-minute speech -- but he also wanted to remind developers that releasing games with bugs is actually not okay. "When I first started, when the disc was shipped it was our last chance [to get rid of bugs] off the bat," Jaffe recalled. "If developers could make it work then, then today they can at least make sure our games don't have to be updated the first week they hit shelves."
Jaffe also suggested that hardware makers implement a feature that lets players bypass boot sequences and system menus, so they can launch directly into the latest save files for whatever games are in their consoles' drives. He noted that mobile device manufacturers and some game makers have gotten it right, citing the likes of New Super Mario Bros. on DS and pretty much all iOS titles.
We'll see if any of these bold new ideas make it into Jaffe's next release, the Twisted Metal reboot.
Reader Comments (89)
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:24PM Truant said
What's old is new again?
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 8:36PM DigitalImpulse said
@Truant I think it's interesting that the Olivia Munn reference seems to removed? I see what u did there Joystiq.
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Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:26PM creid8 said
Here here! I'd play a lot more console games if they had some equivalent to the DS/PSP's sleep mode.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:27PM Ezio Auditore da Firenze said
Agreed, Mr. Jaffe.
This should also apply to Sony and the PS3/PSP hardware.
This should also apply to Sony and the PS3/PSP hardware.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 7:33PM ZeroPayn said
@Ezio Auditore da Firenze
I was really wondering when someone was going to make this statement. A few years ago, games couldn't be "updated" to fix bugs. What was released to stores was the final product. Since developers nowadays have that "patch-crutch", games are releasing with many more bugs, and are overall just being sloppier with design (Fallout: New Vegas, I'm talking to you).
It's about time someone made a stand.
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I was really wondering when someone was going to make this statement. A few years ago, games couldn't be "updated" to fix bugs. What was released to stores was the final product. Since developers nowadays have that "patch-crutch", games are releasing with many more bugs, and are overall just being sloppier with design (Fallout: New Vegas, I'm talking to you).
It's about time someone made a stand.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:31PM sector13 said
How about no more than 4 (or less) updates to console hardware. SONY! I'm tired of update after update with no additional functionality.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:41PM Chris DPSN AggieCEO XBLThe Aggi said
@sector13 uhhh shut...up....
Consoles are computers.....you know how many updates Windows receives in a year? I've just bought a new computer last weekend.....it had 35 updates available as soon as I turned it on...
sure I'm not FORCED to download ALL of those...but every once in a while MS shoots out one that you DO have to download...its verifying your OS is legit...
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Consoles are computers.....you know how many updates Windows receives in a year? I've just bought a new computer last weekend.....it had 35 updates available as soon as I turned it on...
sure I'm not FORCED to download ALL of those...but every once in a while MS shoots out one that you DO have to download...its verifying your OS is legit...
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:51PM KingOfGods said
@sector13
I agree. Just bought a new ps3 last weekend to replace a broken 20GB i had since launch. Everything I put in to play needed an update, especially MAG. it downloaded a 35mb update that took about 10-12 minutes to download after failing 2 times then started a nearly 700 MB download right after plus installation time.
Maybe I'm spoiled by my 360 by why are these updates so large?
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I agree. Just bought a new ps3 last weekend to replace a broken 20GB i had since launch. Everything I put in to play needed an update, especially MAG. it downloaded a 35mb update that took about 10-12 minutes to download after failing 2 times then started a nearly 700 MB download right after plus installation time.
Maybe I'm spoiled by my 360 by why are these updates so large?
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:55PM Drakkenfyre said
Chris, there is a little bit of difference there.
The updates for Windows are usually for your security or improving the stability of the OS. The updates for the PS3 he is talking about is for nothing but Sony's antipiracy.
Forcing you to update a system, and from what I hear they can be awfully long updates, before you can even use it for no return benefit on your own could get annoying if they were repeated over.
If I turn on my Wii, and there is a system update, it doesn't force me to do it unless I want to shop the Wii store, or play a new game that requires the update, then that game comes with the update on disc. I don't have a PS3, but from what I have seen I assume if there is a new update, you can't use the system at all until it updates.
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The updates for Windows are usually for your security or improving the stability of the OS. The updates for the PS3 he is talking about is for nothing but Sony's antipiracy.
Forcing you to update a system, and from what I hear they can be awfully long updates, before you can even use it for no return benefit on your own could get annoying if they were repeated over.
If I turn on my Wii, and there is a system update, it doesn't force me to do it unless I want to shop the Wii store, or play a new game that requires the update, then that game comes with the update on disc. I don't have a PS3, but from what I have seen I assume if there is a new update, you can't use the system at all until it updates.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 7:39PM eNriqeu said
@Drakkenfyre
"The updates for Windows are usually for your security or improving the stability of the OS. The updates for the PS3 he is talking about is for nothing but Sony's antipiracy."
I call that security, and try a console with 2.4 and then try the latest firmware, it adds stability, and many many many new functionality.
Stop wh!ning, seriously.
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"The updates for Windows are usually for your security or improving the stability of the OS. The updates for the PS3 he is talking about is for nothing but Sony's antipiracy."
I call that security, and try a console with 2.4 and then try the latest firmware, it adds stability, and many many many new functionality.
Stop wh!ning, seriously.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 7:43PM CaramelZappa said
@Chris DPSN AggieCEO XBLThe Aggi
Functionality aside, the main difference is that windows updates download in the background and just tell me I need to restart every once in a while. And even so, if I haven't updated yet I can still use my computer to do everything I bought it for. Meanwhile it seems like every time I turn on my PS3 I have to wait twenty minutes or more before I can even check the PSN store to give sony my money. I don't mind that sony wants to update their console, but I do mind that it's a major inconvenience to me.
And it's not like their constant updating has stopped pirates. Only inconvenienced legitimate users. It's almost worse than the anti-consumer DRM that's been plaguing the PC gaming world for years.
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Functionality aside, the main difference is that windows updates download in the background and just tell me I need to restart every once in a while. And even so, if I haven't updated yet I can still use my computer to do everything I bought it for. Meanwhile it seems like every time I turn on my PS3 I have to wait twenty minutes or more before I can even check the PSN store to give sony my money. I don't mind that sony wants to update their console, but I do mind that it's a major inconvenience to me.
And it's not like their constant updating has stopped pirates. Only inconvenienced legitimate users. It's almost worse than the anti-consumer DRM that's been plaguing the PC gaming world for years.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 7:50PM Mcmax3000 said
@Drakkenfyre - Not quite on your last point. You can still use the console & play games without updating (except for the instance of the games that require the update and have it on the disc like you mentioned), you just can't connect to the Playstation Network
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Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 8:33PM Drakkenfyre said
@eNriqeu
Maybe you didn't notice, I wasn't whining.
I was pointing out the difference between the two.
I don't even own a PS3, so it's updates don't bother me.
Try reading better next time.
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Maybe you didn't notice, I wasn't whining.
I was pointing out the difference between the two.
I don't even own a PS3, so it's updates don't bother me.
Try reading better next time.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 11:58PM Premature ejaculation man said
@sector13
I just want to chime in and say that I doubt very much its the developers themselves that have the mentality of "ship now patch later". I'm positive any developer making a game he's put so much effort into would rather work on it until its the best thing ever.
I feel it is typically management and publisher pressure that does this kind of thing. Rather than "ship now, patch later" its probably "Earn money sooner, only deal with it if its a problem since we'll have their money"
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I just want to chime in and say that I doubt very much its the developers themselves that have the mentality of "ship now patch later". I'm positive any developer making a game he's put so much effort into would rather work on it until its the best thing ever.
I feel it is typically management and publisher pressure that does this kind of thing. Rather than "ship now, patch later" its probably "Earn money sooner, only deal with it if its a problem since we'll have their money"
Posted: Mar 3rd 2011 3:53PM BlazeKing said
@Chris DPSN AggieCEO XBLThe Aggi
- but he also wanted to remind developers that releasing games with bugs is actually not okay. "When I first started, when the disc was shipped it was our last chance [to get rid of bugs] off the bat," Jaffe recalled. "If developers could make it work then, then today they can at least make sure our games don't have to be updated the first week they hit shelves."
Remember when I said this when I had a convo with you and it got voted down? Some other guy responded and said "no games were released that didn't have bugs" back in the ps2 days.
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- but he also wanted to remind developers that releasing games with bugs is actually not okay. "When I first started, when the disc was shipped it was our last chance [to get rid of bugs] off the bat," Jaffe recalled. "If developers could make it work then, then today they can at least make sure our games don't have to be updated the first week they hit shelves."
Remember when I said this when I had a convo with you and it got voted down? Some other guy responded and said "no games were released that didn't have bugs" back in the ps2 days.
Posted: Mar 4th 2011 2:21PM Mcmax3000 said
@dsp4 - Oh, I'm not defending their updates... I think they're deplorable how long they take and how often they're released & if I do need to connect to PSN, I'll often put off doing it for weeks because I know there's an update that I'll need to download.
I was just merely correcting his thought that the system was unusable because that's not the case.
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I was just merely correcting his thought that the system was unusable because that's not the case.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:32PM dudes113 said
It's a great idea, but I don't think possible in this day and age. The amount of code and data in game now compared to years ago has gone up ridiculous amounts. Routing out every bug in a game is a huge, huge undertaking now.
Personally I don't mind a lot updates - if it makes my game better, I'm more than happy to download it.
Personally I don't mind a lot updates - if it makes my game better, I'm more than happy to download it.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:50PM Drakkenfyre said
It's totally possible.
Using that reason is just an excuse.
Pc games have had the same problems for years. Publishers push developers, or developers get lazy, they think "We can patch it later", and ship out games with massive bugs. Sometimes entire games UNFINISHED.
Consoles get hard drives, and internet connectivity, and the "ship it now, patch it later" mentality pops up with developers. Coincidence? I think not. It's laziness.
There is a difference between "find all bugs" and "find majority of bugs, let no game-stopping bugs thru." Is a bug that freezes the entire game excusable? Hell no. Is a bug that renders the game unplayable on certain revisions of the hardware acceptible? Hell no.
It's not about the size of the code. It's about the publishers who know players will pay to beta test a game for them. And about developers who couldn't care less because as soon as that one gets shipped, they start working on the next game in the line, or DLC.
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Using that reason is just an excuse.
Pc games have had the same problems for years. Publishers push developers, or developers get lazy, they think "We can patch it later", and ship out games with massive bugs. Sometimes entire games UNFINISHED.
Consoles get hard drives, and internet connectivity, and the "ship it now, patch it later" mentality pops up with developers. Coincidence? I think not. It's laziness.
There is a difference between "find all bugs" and "find majority of bugs, let no game-stopping bugs thru." Is a bug that freezes the entire game excusable? Hell no. Is a bug that renders the game unplayable on certain revisions of the hardware acceptible? Hell no.
It's not about the size of the code. It's about the publishers who know players will pay to beta test a game for them. And about developers who couldn't care less because as soon as that one gets shipped, they start working on the next game in the line, or DLC.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 7:08PM dudes113 said
@Drakkenfyre
I definitely concede that many developers have become lazy, and while I can't speak from experience on the PC I know what you're talking about.
At the same time though, this "excuse" remains true - Metroid: Other M as an example. Nintendo and Team Ninja were all aware that updates aren't possible on the Wii, yet a game-stopping bug was shipped. I wouldn't credit that to laziness.
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I definitely concede that many developers have become lazy, and while I can't speak from experience on the PC I know what you're talking about.
At the same time though, this "excuse" remains true - Metroid: Other M as an example. Nintendo and Team Ninja were all aware that updates aren't possible on the Wii, yet a game-stopping bug was shipped. I wouldn't credit that to laziness.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 8:18PM ACLerok212 said
@dudes113
I agree. If companies can find ways and are willing to put in the effort to improve performance after release, I have no problem with that.
What's really needed is much better quality control at release. I find nothing wrong with performance patches and minor bug fixes, but it's too much when they are required to fix a broken purchase.
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I agree. If companies can find ways and are willing to put in the effort to improve performance after release, I have no problem with that.
What's really needed is much better quality control at release. I find nothing wrong with performance patches and minor bug fixes, but it's too much when they are required to fix a broken purchase.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:36PM iceveiled said
Awww I just want to pinch his widdle cheeks!
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:42PM Pure Black World Tendency said
@iceveiled
LOL someone photoshop some bear ears on Jaffe
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LOL someone photoshop some bear ears on Jaffe
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 7:35PM The Only Girl said
@Pure Black World Tendency
http://i56.tinypic.com/2zzq6uf.jpg
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http://i56.tinypic.com/2zzq6uf.jpg
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 7:59PM Pure Black World Tendency said
@The Only Girl
No, bad girl! :p Poor Jaffe...
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No, bad girl! :p Poor Jaffe...
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:37PM iceveiled said
Aww I just want to pinch his widdle cheeks!
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:37PM DigitalImpulse said
@Gposh Like a Daewoo?
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:37PM iceveiled said
I don't mind a lot of updates, just STOP RELEASING UNFINISHED GAMES.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:38PM Chris DPSN AggieCEO XBLThe Aggi said
Guess that means we wont see a patch for the new Twisted Metal in the first 2 months after release....I'm bookmarking this so I can Tweet it to Jaffe if he doesn't stick to it.....
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:40PM Pure Black World Tendency said
Imagine you want to show your hot date some LBP gameplay to see if she might be a potential gamer babe, only to have that particular idea ruined by a gargantuan mega patch from the outer reaches of space that makes your PS3 seem like some cassette-loading monstrosity from the early 80s...
Yes... happened to me twice.
Yes... happened to me twice.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 9:12PM SoCoolCurt said
@Pure Black World Tendency
yea i hate that. it makes me reluctant to play a lot of my old games because i know when i put them in there will be a 30 minute update waiting for me. usually by the time they finish i won't even want to play them anymore.
that said, i certainly don't mind them in principle since i love that devs can fix broken games, i just wish they didn't take so long. and that devs sometimes use it as a crutch and release unfinished games.
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yea i hate that. it makes me reluctant to play a lot of my old games because i know when i put them in there will be a 30 minute update waiting for me. usually by the time they finish i won't even want to play them anymore.
that said, i certainly don't mind them in principle since i love that devs can fix broken games, i just wish they didn't take so long. and that devs sometimes use it as a crutch and release unfinished games.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:40PM IslandLife said
Yes developers, how about giving me the option to skip through 8 different logo sequences just to get to the title screen, EVERYTIME I play your game!
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 7:00PM Drakkenfyre said
This pisses me off so bad.
Pc games it's bad, too.
"nVidia. The way it's meant to be played."
"Intel inside"
"Blah, blah, blah, codec."
"Blah, blah, blah, technology"
Blah, blah, blah, copyright"
"Blah. blah, blah, company who created this first"
"Company who owns copyright"
"Company who has licensed technology for multiplayer"
"Developer"
"Publisher"
"Title screen"
"Actual options screen"
And some of them don't even let you skip them. Some people have even released mods to remove that crap from certain games.
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Pc games it's bad, too.
"nVidia. The way it's meant to be played."
"Intel inside"
"Blah, blah, blah, codec."
"Blah, blah, blah, technology"
Blah, blah, blah, copyright"
"Blah. blah, blah, company who created this first"
"Company who owns copyright"
"Company who has licensed technology for multiplayer"
"Developer"
"Publisher"
"Title screen"
"Actual options screen"
And some of them don't even let you skip them. Some people have even released mods to remove that crap from certain games.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 7:09PM oOWallaceOo said
@IslandLife
But how am I supposed to know what studio made my COD game ?
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But how am I supposed to know what studio made my COD game ?
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 7:12PM fallouthirteen said
@IslandLife
To be fair, a lot of those technology ones are mandatory by the technology owners. Logo screens for things like game engines have to be displayed for a certain amount of time as part of the license agreement, so complain to them and not the developers on those.
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To be fair, a lot of those technology ones are mandatory by the technology owners. Logo screens for things like game engines have to be displayed for a certain amount of time as part of the license agreement, so complain to them and not the developers on those.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 7:21PM Drakkenfyre said
@Scuffles
Run the original AVP. Let me know how that Esc button works for you.
(People actually put out a mod to remove those video files.)
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Run the original AVP. Let me know how that Esc button works for you.
(People actually put out a mod to remove those video files.)
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 7:49PM Premature ejaculation man said
@IslandLife
I suppose its one reason I like PC games. I can just delete the damn video files and it goes straight to the menu
Crackdown on the 360 was the worst with at least 5000 logos
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I suppose its one reason I like PC games. I can just delete the damn video files and it goes straight to the menu
Crackdown on the 360 was the worst with at least 5000 logos
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:40PM Ruction said
I like how this guy thinks. And I can't wait for the new twisted metal game.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:40PM ZoneoftheEnders said
I like to get games early, but lately it seems like a mistake. I am sure if I had played fable 3 after it had been patched I might have enjoyed it but the bugs on release taste left such a bad taste in my mouth I traded it in.
Posted: Mar 2nd 2011 6:41PM tmo25 said
seriously how hard is it to turn your system on and use your controller to select the game to boot up
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