Federal Magistrate allows Sony to look up visitors to GeoHot site

@xHotPotatox You are correct no matter how faded (and me) are.

@xHotPotatox

Why? They're one of the few companies that is actually playing hardball with the hackers. They already had a platform hacked and ruined (see: PSP), so they aren't just going to sit there and let their flagship get ruined the same way. Even if it is unsuccessful in preventing anything, they need to show hackers that they aren't just going to take the hacking. You can't just give the impression that they don't care, otherwise the NGP, PS4, etc. are all screwed too because hackers and pirates will think Sony doesn't care.

In summary, it might be too late to save the PS3, but not to save the NGP and PS4.

@xHotPotatox You mean it's not to late to save those platforms from hackers who identify themselves and maintain public websites.

Also, I'm sick and tired of people who blame hackers for their woes. Other companies have to deal with the exact same things Sony does, but they aren't nearly as user hostile as Sony is with their attempts to combat it. This is even more offensive: Now everyone who had their IPs subpoenaed can be targeted for further litigation when potentially the only reason they visited the site is because of all the media attention it has received due to this litigation. That's messed up.

@onan

Can you read and comprehend?

"information obtained by the subpoena would be used to measure the extent of the "defendant's distribution" of the jailbreak files,..."

That means they are not going target every living soul that visited the site, just gauge how much of the public have been directly exposed to the tools, guides, etc directly from GeoHotz, so they can deal with him accordingly in court.

@RagingStormX I did read and do comprehend. I didn't notice at any point where the subpoena or Sony stated they ONLY would be using it for action against Geohot.

From what I've read, they've been given the list, no strings attached based on violations of the DMCA. There is no stipulation stating they are NOT permitted to track down those visitors now that they have the lists. Joystiq and Wired also didn't mention in their articles that there were limitations stating they couldn't pursue action against those IPs. That WOULD be a bit of big news, I think. I doubt they just forgot to mention it.

According to the DMCA, they have every right to. You've seen Sony in action for decades now. Is there anything at all in their history to indicate they *wouldn't* use information like that that falls into their lap to their advantage? This is a company that put *root kits on their music CDs.* They'll take any action against piracy that's legally available to them, and in some cases they'll even go beyond that.

@onan Dude, try to read carefuly please. Instead of raging here, try and read carefuly.

In simple words, Sony is just gathering information about the IP's(also known as public exposition) that visited GeoHot's sites. So they can use that in court to prove how broad was the spreading about the information that GeoHot was publishing.

They are just gathering information for the court. They are not going after the people that visited the site. In fact, for all the people wanting to see GeoHot in the jail, go and visit the sites from many computer at different places, so they will add to the count.

SONY IS NOT AFTER YOU JUST BY VISITING THESE SITES.

@ObiAlKenobi You're wrong though. State of NY v. Harrison, any evidence found in regards to one case is admissible in another.

Pretty much saying that if they find possible malicious evidence, they can use it later in a court of law.

@gordogg24p

The only problem with Sony's approach to this problem is they are using witch hunt tactics and compromising people's privacy to an extent in the process, especially when it comes to subpoena request for anyone who may have accessed the site. While they may in fact keep their next wave of systems "hacker safe" they may be inadvertently handing market share to Microsoft in the future console war. Sony already has enough problems without compounding them via massive lawsuits. Pyrrhic victory if I've ever seen one.

@eat it

I hate what Geohot and the hacking community have done to the PS3. While Sony has actions have been extreme I understand why they are trying to stop all the hacking. What I don't like is how this subpoena potentially sets a scary precedent that invades privacy. Love how a bunch of people skewered my words, can't help but laugh at it

@xHotPotatox
Thats my thought exactly. And not everybody who visited the site hacked a PS3, I think its going a litle too far.

@gordogg24p

They are paying hardball on the tax payers dime. I don't see how everyone is ok with this? They are going to tie up the FEDERAL (tax funded) courts with lame lawsuits when they should be in the Civil Courts. This is absolute bullshit. They get to waste our time and money punishing the little man because of their own damn mistakes.

@eat it Do you think it would be stupid to disallow personal changes to be made to a computer that you buy? How about to a car?

Why is the PS3 not allowed to be broken open but these other things are? Look at the 360, that has been hacked for 5 years. How come there aren't thousands of fanboys raging about that?

Sony and PS3 fanboys think they are in a bubble, and somehow above everyone else. The problem isn't with the hackers, it is with Sony's security. The network (the only thing they lawfully own) is what allowed games to be manipulated. How many times are there network-wide issues on Xbox Live? Not often, because it is secure.

Using hardware as means of security is like using a MAC filter on a home network. It will do its job for a while, but eventually it will be broken and broken HARD.

@gordogg24p

The PSP was kept on life support because it was hacked. Just like the og XBOX. The 360 is a pirates dream and it's doing fine. A 5 year old can pirate games on the DS and the Wii and N is also doing fine.

I'm over Sony and their bitch tactics.

How could anyone defend these methods?
I mean, as if Sony wouldn't just forge evidence if the figures indicate that San Fransisco isn't the vortex of darkness and PS3 piracy they make it out to be just to have the trial there.
We're talking about a company here that distributed rootkits to its users and fabricated evidence by donating a dollar to geohot. And now everyone's supposed to believe they won't use the gathered information for anything else? Yeah, right.

Are some of you really that paranoid... the mere fact that some people could have visited his site out of share curiosity from all the media GeoHotz was getting, means they can't be persecuted for anything. Also..this is the internet, Sony and its lawyers doesn't have jurisdiction over the world. Now if from that evidence they can also tell how much of those IP's that visited his site actually downloaded hacking software and choose to go after those people...then I totally back Sony's decision, because they have obviously gone beyond the step of curiosity and have possession of illegal software. I've been to many forums and sites that talked about CFW and the likes, just to know whats going on, but I haven't downloaded anything cause I don't plan on hacking my PS3. Sony or the State can't tell you what sites you cannot go to...and going to a site is not a crime. One would think that any living being with an IQ higher than that of a piece of cardboard can understand this.

@RagingStormX Are you Dick Cheney?

@FDLMagnus

And yet you live in a society where what they are doing is completely legal. I'm afraid you have spoken up a bit too late - the time to do that was years ago when these laws were approved and did nothing to stop them.

As for what Sony is doing, I'm all for them going after the idiots who are pirating. Throw the book at them - what they did is illegal - plain and simple. There is gray zone there - whatever feeble reasons you may offer (I wanted to try it out and then I would buy it, I wouldn't have played it anyways, blah blah blah)... I'm sure if people really wanted to homebrew, they could have found another way to do it without comprising the system in the way they did. I think most of us see it for what it is.

@onan

"Other companies have to deal with the exact same things Sony does, but they aren't nearly as user hostile as Sony is with their attempts to combat it"

In other words, companies such as Sony should just drop all charges and learn to "adapt," right? Awesome, bring in the more-annoying version of DRM!*

*Note: I'm pretty sure Geohotz didn't create a "ISO back-up loader." However, obviously, he's the root problem.

I'd write a lengthier post, but then I realized that this was Joystiq -- the majority claim that they do not condone piracy (and other negatives such as online cheating), yet they can't stand the fact that a company is going on the offensive to try and destroy the root problem? OKAY!

Like in the SRK forums: stay free.

@Ellimem

If I lived across the street from you and aimed a telescope into your windows wouldn't you get annoyed? Close your blinds! why don't you be more secure. It's your daughters fault for having her curtains open.

I own my house and telescope. I can do whatever I want.

Yeah you own you PS3, we all own our consoles. But once you hack it and take it online and ruin it for other people that's when other people get upset and fight back.

all it's going to take is one virus to brick a tens of thousands of systems. but no you're right hackers should be praised because they are fighting for our freedom.

I really do wish sony would just shut down. and retire with their millions. I wish they would just say, "f--k it, we made our money, we're not dealing with this"

@Anticrawl Federal courts and "civil" courts are all the same - you are making the wrong distinction. It's federal vs. state court; and within each, there is criminal and civil. However, these are both government entities with budgets that are paid by the government - although there are fees to litigate cases paid by the parties to the courts to offset the costs, although not significant ($450 generally in CA civil courts to file a (non-small claims) lawsuit.)

These subpoenas are required in order to prove that GeoHolt had sufficient contacts with the state of California such that California has personal jurisdiction over the defendant. This is because defendant has filed a motion to dismiss for lack of personal jurisdiction - since he is not a resident of the state of California.

Secondly, while the subpoenas are broad - they have been limited pursuant to proper meeting and conferring between the parties, and defendant Holt has agreed to the amended subpoenas, which the judge ordered as valid. You will notice that some of the information will be held in camera for "attorney's eyes only," which means that the information cannot be disclosed to the client - technically. Additionally, the non-parties that are being asked to provide the information have their own right to object to the subpoena, and provide information responsive subject to redaction. I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear that Google, youtube, twitter and the rest will all object when producing their documents, and pursuant to those objections, Sony can ask the judge to have a hearing on the validity of those objections and make a ruling. Lastly, anyone whose information will be released will be notified of the pending release of their personal information, and they will have their own right/opportunity to personally object to the information, at which point the judge will make a ruling on the breadth and scope of the subpoenas at issue.

And for everyone complaining about your privacy rights - privacy is not a static right. It's a fundamental right for sure, but just because you have a fundamental right does not make it impenetrable. Courts have always had the ability to bypass privacy concerns when the need for the information is sufficiently great to obviate or outweigh the privacy concerns. This is just such an example.

These issues are always about weighing the needs of the party asking for the information against the right of the party having information sought, or third parties, from preventing that information from getting out - and having a constitutional basis for doing so. It's a balancing test.

@Narmo23

Hey, I'm all for Sony installing something like StarForce on their consoles. The console fanboys have been cackling like banshees at us because they feel fuzzy and special. Let them suffer through what we had to go through. SecuROM and StarForce for everyone.

Lets see some mother boards melt, and stoke the tears of the anguished fanboy. I'm tired of being treated like the only criminal so Microsoft and Sony can make their console kids feel warm and special.

@copa

Same here, well... not EXACTLY the same.

I was wanting to get to GeoHatz.com, and accidentally hit the "o" at the wrong time...

Don't blame me, I was wanting to see if I could get an environmentally safe and snazzy hat...

@Aguiluz
Go to a coffee shop with wifi

@Punkrawk Bbob
Honestly, all he did was "unlock" the PS3, allowing people to do with it as they like. He didn't allow for software piracy, someone else did (and there has been PS3 piracy prior to his release, but far less of an issue). He didn't allow for games to be hacked, someone else did.

Being against unlocking the PS3... is like being against jailbreaking iOS devices or rooting Android devices. It's basically saying that the hardware manufacturer owns the device, not you, and you can only do what they tell you that you can. I don't know about you, but I'm rather not fond of being told I can't do something with the devices I've paid good money for (with exception, of course, bringing harm to others, because that's no good).

@BPMOmega XBL PSN Steam

That's the problem though: GeoHot "unlocking" the PS3 is the first step of the staircase leading to piracy.

And it's pretty obvious Sony doesn't like their users tinkering with the OS. The ceasing of Linux, anyone?

@kgoo867 You don't understand the difference between homebrew and piracy, do you?

@Punkrawk Bbob
Don't blame GeoHotz for Sony's ridiculous reaction. Jailbreaking phones was exempted from the DMCA by the Library of Congress. A PS3 is not a phone (although it does support VoIP), but the concept is pretty darn similar, and I suspect if consoles were as ubiquitous as phones, a similar exception would have been made. Companies shouldn't be allowed to sue away their own weaknesses.

@Make it so
It doesn't matter. The iPhone is, to a lesser extend, a handheld gaming console.

@Make it so
Regardless, what GeoHot did was a violation of the EULA, not an official law. Depending on what court he is taken to, the EULA may or may not hold up.

@Shadowbender

"That's the problem though: GeoHot "unlocking" the PS3 is the first step of the staircase leading to piracy. "

and jailbreaking an iPhone if the first step toward pirating it's apps. same thing. but jailbreaking either device can be used for other, legitimate things. that's why, no matter what comes of this case, i don't believe that geohot and the others did anything morally wrong. though i still decry the use of their work for pirating. just punish those who actually did wrong (the pirates).

@maveric101

As far as I understand it they did something wrong because they attempted not to completely write a new OS for it, but instead attempted to crack the security in the existing OS to allow the current one to do things it shouldn't be able to do according to the rules set by the company.

In other words, if they formatted the drive, wrote an entirely original OS that made all the necessary calls with the right privileges, worked with the PS3's built in security features to allow it to do so, didn't run official PS3 software, and didn't connect to Sony's official servers, it'd be fine. Instead they're breaking into Sony's software and connecting to their servers using hacked devices. This could result in someone not breaking the law but instead causing grief for other customers which could in turn cause problems for Sony and it's third party supporters.

Why would I buy a game or a console if I know every online feature is going to suck because hackers are actively trying to ruin it for me?

@sigma8

"Don't blame GeoHotz for Sony's ridiculous reaction"

- I didn't blame him for anything. I was making note that he initiated the first step in a chain reaction of shittiness, from both Sony and the PS3 homebrew community. Between piracy, trophy unlockers, MP games being busted due to rampant accessible cheating - Not a single good thing has come of this.

@Punkrawk Bbob
Sure, but...what do you propose? That everyone avoid any actions that lead to shittiness? If that were the case, nobody would have stood up for their rights in Egypt or Libya, due to the threat of shittiness.

More on topic: if GeoHotz and the rest of the iPhone jailbreakers had never jailbroken the iPhone and similar devices, there wouldn't have been enough awareness of the issue for the Library of Congress to bother making an exemption in the DMCA, and we'd be living in a more draconian world.

Fear of crappy reactions--by itself--isn't a really good justification for not undertaking something. The question should be: is this person doing something worthwhile? A quick answer for the Sony thing might be "No", however, his efforts have been used to re-enable "lost" features (other OS) and enable Homebrew.

In his defense, this is a somewhat unprecedented reaction by Sony. Its PSP was hacked up the wazoo, but they never reacted this strongly about it. Who could have predicted they'd be subpoena'ing his ISP for everyone who's been there's IPs? Just because Hotz might be a douche, doesn't mean he is actively trying to make our lives miserable. In fact, I'm thankful to him for enabling me to use my normally carrier-locked phone on another network which ACTUALLY HAS SIGNAL in my apartment. If it weren't for him, I wouldn't be able to make phone calls.

@sigma8

"If that were the case, nobody would have stood up for their rights in Egypt or Libya, due to the threat of shittiness."
-World of difference. Way to try and drop the shock card though. You're talking about a country that has been abused by their governing powers for decades, unavoidable oppression of everyone who happened to be born within a geographic location. The PS3 is an entertainment device that was created with a very specific purpose that he decided he wanted to alter for more entertainment. It's not like he released the key to cure cancer. It was to simply prove how awesome is and how we all should worship him(as you seem to be doing). All I've gotten out of it is forced firmware updates and unplayable MP games. So he has in fact devalued my gaming experience into shit. CoD was flat out impossible to deal with.

"More on topic: if GeoHotz and the rest of the iPhone jailbreakers had never jailbroken the iPhone and similar devices, there wouldn't have been enough awareness of the issue for the Library of Congress to bother making an exemption in the DMCA, and we'd be living in a more draconian world."
-There are OTHER ways to bring attention to problematic laws then shitting on general consumers for your own recognition.

"his efforts have been used to re-enable "lost" features (other OS) and enable Homebrew."
-Yes, but with a complete disregard for the price of enabling no longer supported features that a remote minority used.

"In fact, I'm thankful to him for enabling me to use my normally carrier-locked phone on another network which ACTUALLY HAS SIGNAL in my apartment. If it weren't for him, I wouldn't be able to make phone calls."
-Because you're a pretentious douche that has to have an iPhone instead of owning a phone that does it's primary function? You're right, I should rejoice in the glory of GeoHot for this wonderfully volatile scenario he (according to you) has zero accountability for.

I'm normally all for the rights of the individuals. Hell, I'm not even condemning him for making the discoveries he did. Ya know what though, he wasn't the first to crack a system. There have been individuals to break open the PSP and PS3 before him, but they kept it low-key and within a very tight-knit circle. GeoHot should be held accountable for all the things he made possible. Federal law states you're accountable for any guests at a party which you serve alcohol. If they get into a car accident on the way home from your party, the victim has the right to pursue legal action against you as well as drunk for supplying the alcohol that put them in that condition. I fail to see how this is any different. Accountability wise.

@Punkrawk Bbob
"World of difference. Way to try and drop the shock card though."
Perhaps too much shock, yes. Still, the main point I was trying to make is that the threat of extremist responses should not be a deterrent to action. There will always be someone who is extreme. Release a Harry Potter movie, and some groups decry it as witchcraft and Satanism. I don't think many would agree with their stance. Given the past responses to things being unlocked--even Sony's own stuff--I don't think this Witch-hunt was entirely predictable.

"All I've gotten out of it is forced firmware updates and unplayable MP games. So he has in fact devalued my gaming experience into shit. CoD was flat out impossible to deal with."

Sony was releasing regular firmware updates for "security reasons" well before Geohot hacked their console. I don't think much has changed for you on that front. As for CoD being broken, it seems to be the only game that is suffering. You don't think maybe the devs should shoulder some of the blame for relying on loose security? If a bank uses loose security for your accounts, and gets hacked, sure you can blame the hackers...but don't you also blame the bank? Perhaps even more so? From your point of view, both Sony and You are constants. You are both constantly responsible. Hackers come and go like the rain. Does it make sense to blame a rainstorm for the leak in your roof? Or should you blame the roofer who installed the roof? You can blame Hotz all you want, but if he hadn't released it, someone else would have.

"There are OTHER ways to bring attention to problematic laws then shitting on general consumers for your own recognition."

There's always a better way. It's VERY EASY to ridicule someone's actions in hindsight. He could have done it anonymously if all he wanted to do was screw people over. People say it's because he's an egomaniac, and I am sure he has an Ego (like any of us), but IMO he deserves credit for taking responsibility for the reveal. He was trying to shine a light on what he felt was an important issue. People who only care about their CoD online games might not appreciate that, but it's what he was trying to do. And might I remind you that Black Ops people remain blissfully unaffected because that game didn't use crappy networking security.

"Because you're a pretentious douche that has to have an iPhone instead of owning a phone that does it's primary function?"

Yeah, I guess that's one way to put it. Thank goodness for me that the Library of Congress is full of douches who think that's a fair and reasonable action.

"GeoHot should be held accountable for all the things he made possible. Federal law states you're accountable for any guests at a party which you serve alcohol. If they get into a car accident on the way home from your party, the victim has the right to pursue legal action against you as well as drunk for supplying the alcohol that put them in that condition. I fail to see how this is any different. Accountability wise."

That's probably about as pertinent as my Libya/Egypt example. Nobody is dying or getting personally injured here. There's no blood. The liability in alcohol situations is because it's about life and death. If you want to blame people for "enabling" others, then the creator of bittorrent should be rotting in the dankest prison cell we have right now. Sure, that _can_ be used legally, but let's get real. It's massively used for piracy well beyond the scale of anything Sony is dealing with. Probably more than 99% of its use is piracy. According to you, we should lock up the developer who released that app. If the person who came up with the P2P concept is not the same person, then your comment implies we should probably nab them, too.

@YimYimYimi

You should have actually read the Wired article. I'll be nice and quote it for you.

"The DMCA prohibits the trafficking of so-called “circumvention devices” designed to crack copy-protection schemes."

DMCA. Digital Millenium Copyright Act. A federal law. That's a little more substantial than the EULA.

@kgoo867
This is an important issue in what it means to buy and own something. It doesn't matter if its a phone are console, I paid for it. I don't want a car company telling me I have to use Shell gas, or I can only drive on certain roads. Ban those consoles from the PSN, thats reasonable.

@w1n5t0n

You don't ever fully own anything. Welcome to reality.

@Apakal

I own yo mamma. And she's goooooood.

J/K, in all seriousness though console ownership SHOULD allow you to do whatever you want with it. I just don't agree with you releasing a tool that has the potential to circumvent the money the company needs to sustain itself in the business. I'm not a Sony fanboy, but I would greatly enjoy them being around long enough to release the PS4.

@sonicspike41

Sony's rules are not the law. According to title 17 chapter 12 of copyright law there's an exception to the law against circumventing security measures if it is necessary to achieve interoperability with other programs - like linux.

@Punkrawk Bbob
Late to the party, I know, but certain multiplayer games (including COD) were basically unplayable before Geohot released the exploit. You don't have to hack the PS3 to hex edit your game save, and that's all it takes to mess with poorly written games. The developers tried to leave the security on their game discs alone, and none on THEIR multiplayer servers. PC game devs and Microsoft owned servers have methods similar to PunkBuster anti-cheat measures on their servers. For years this has been the preferred method of controlling MP games because the servers themselves are easily updated and reconfigured as game exploits are found. The worst part is that whoever hosts Infinity Ward's servers has the ability to implement security checks, but hasn't. GeoHot is just the household "favorite" hacker on the internet right now. So he gets blamed.

@codyy

How is it breaking the law if they were given permission?

@Faenix
The "permission" part is a ruling from a judge, who does not understand privacy laws at all.
I would like to see this judge sued because the judge broke the rights of others. It is like saying that a investigator gets the warrant not only to investigate a suspects home, but also every home of every visitor, passerby, family member that ever had contact with the suspect. That is plain wrong, and I would like to see Google or an ISP NOT follow this unjust "permission".

And for the record, GeoHot never broke ANY law, except that piece of shit unconstitutional crap law that is called the DMCA. If this law was represented for the Supreme Court, it would be ripped apart, burned and atomised.

@DoggySpew

Hmmm, I have DoggySpew on one hand and a Federal Judge on the other giving me conflicting legal advice... who do I go with?

Oh yeah! The guy who went to law school, spent years as a lawyer, and was gifted enough as a lawyer and respected enough by his peers and superiors to be appointed as a judge in a Federal Court!

@DoggySpew

What?

I don't know any legal mumbo jumbo, but just like you, I'm gonna take a stab at it. And based on what I've read from the article, and comments, you're wrong.

It's more like the investigator gets the warrant to enter a drug dealers home, and check the security camera feeds to see how many people have been coming and going to his house.

That doesn't mean they're going after these people, but they're using the videos to prove that he could be selling drugs.
--------------------------

But just like you, I know more than the Judge handling this case. I'm being facetious, by the way.