Gamasutra rounded up six of the precious few standout developers of Xbox Live Indie Games (XBLIG) to discuss the continually promising but frequently embattled platform. Camille Guermonprez of Arkedo Studios praised XBLIG as "fast and easy to use" and Xona Games' Matthew Doucette noted that "development is essentially free in terms of fees" (just an annual $120 membership); before he warned that additional "developer and game content expenses can be massive to a start-up."
Indeed, none of these indies has struck gold -- certainly not like the top devs are finding on the App Store -- and three of the six are at least temporarily abandoning XBLIG, while the others have expanded to multiplatform development. "[To] stay only on XBLIG makes no financial sense at the moment," Doucette said.
When asked what improvements could be made to the platform, Luke Schneider of Radian Games' echoed the majority when he said that "the biggest issue is definitely Achievements" -- or lack thereof.
Microsoft spawned a culture of gamers in need of a measurable reward when it introduced the "Gamerscore," and the absence of Achievements is perhaps the greatest consumer barrier to XBLIG. Of course, as a few of the developers also pointed out, the Indie Games storefront itself is in dire need of improvement.
"There is no long tail in the Xbox Live Marketplace because the product discovery tools are so weak -- a few top 10 lists and an alphabetical browse feature," lamented Deejay of Binary Tweed, whose Clover (pictured) was met with poor launch sales following a promising buildup. "Can you imagine Amazon without a search? Without recommendations?"
"Microsoft could fix these problems, but it's very likely that they won't be able to," he concluded. "They have ongoing relationships worth millions of dollars with publishers that far outweigh the needs of the indie development scene." But hey, at least Microsoft will do business with you guys.
Reader Comments (64)
Posted: Mar 18th 2011 10:11PM Robborboy said
Not having achievements on inde games is understandable. It would allow so many ways to boost you gamerscore. Even going so far as there being apps/games that sole purpose is to award gamerscore.
Leave it out if you ask me.
Leave it out if you ask me.
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 12:27AM (Unverified) said
@Robborboy Games with Achievements could require an additional level of certification. Microsoft could limit indie games to 50 points and, say 5 or 10 achievements, max. They could allow achievements, but not allow them to have points, at all.
Or better yet, people could stop waving their gamer score around like it actually means something and thereby, stop caring how easy or hard achievements are to get. I like to think of my achievement list as a road map for where I've been and what games I've played. I don't give a flying f&*k through a rolling donut how many points I have.
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Or better yet, people could stop waving their gamer score around like it actually means something and thereby, stop caring how easy or hard achievements are to get. I like to think of my achievement list as a road map for where I've been and what games I've played. I don't give a flying f&*k through a rolling donut how many points I have.
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 3:25AM Ozzpot said
I'm not proud of it, but I'd certainly have bought a few of the Indie games I've tried if they had achievements, if only 100G.
But Robborboy is right, without official certification, it would be open to abuse and you'd end up with games that are barely more than an 80MSP "purchase" of 100G.
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But Robborboy is right, without official certification, it would be open to abuse and you'd end up with games that are barely more than an 80MSP "purchase" of 100G.
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 4:41AM Jack Kevorkian said
@Robborboy Achievements would also means MS would pay more attention for certs and Indie games would get watered down on questionable content. I'd like Indie games to become more and more AO every day.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2011 11:53AM Nintendo Tim said
@(Unverified) - "I don't give a flying f&*k through a rolling donut how many points I have."
Sir, you've just coined my new catch phrase. If only you had a name to be credited as...
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Sir, you've just coined my new catch phrase. If only you had a name to be credited as...
Posted: Mar 20th 2011 12:33AM Polymorphic Ninja said
@Nintendo Tim
Actually, I believe it was the author Kurt Vonnegut who originally said that (in his novel Slaughterhouse Five)
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Actually, I believe it was the author Kurt Vonnegut who originally said that (in his novel Slaughterhouse Five)
Posted: Mar 20th 2011 3:35PM Matthew Doucette said
@Robborboy I would ask for you not to jump to a conclusion so quickly. And having the first comment on this article be what I feel is so shortsighted is painful when I have understood your concern and devised solutions around it. If there were a way to have GS and Achievements in XBLIG games, that didn't devalue GS, would you be for it? or against it? or wouldn't care? Please do not assume any type of solution would be the end of GS value. Microsoft cares about the value of GS and they will not tarnish it, so there is nothing to worry about. That said, a system that forces a gamer to pay 800 MSP for every 200 GS, whether they buy XBLA or XBLIG, would be the beginning of the answer to such concerns. Peer review powers to reject games that abuse GS (even within the restrictions I mentioned already) would squash the rest. Then neither gamers or developers could abuse the system. Please, what do you think of this? Thank you.
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Posted: Mar 20th 2011 3:45PM Robborboy said
@Matthew Doucette I would still be against it. I am against gamerscore in general.
Peer review is exactly that. A review of peers. Not people employed by Microsoft. Microsoft would NEVER, I repeat NEVER allow a game to sport achievements without going directly through them first.
From that not only would the development cost rise above what is normal, but also the cost would trickle down to the consumer. When that happens is when I cease purchasing Xbox Live Indie Games all together.
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Peer review is exactly that. A review of peers. Not people employed by Microsoft. Microsoft would NEVER, I repeat NEVER allow a game to sport achievements without going directly through them first.
From that not only would the development cost rise above what is normal, but also the cost would trickle down to the consumer. When that happens is when I cease purchasing Xbox Live Indie Games all together.
Posted: Mar 18th 2011 10:11PM Colin said
I'm a huge indie games fan, but I don't like how Clover keeps being brought up as an example of Microsoft failing the devs. People just keep blaming its sales on the storefront and the marketing, but (imo, of course) it just wasn't a terribly good game.
Of course, XBLIG needs some serious love from Microsoft, but if they were to provide that I imagine the membership fees might start to creep up.
Of course, XBLIG needs some serious love from Microsoft, but if they were to provide that I imagine the membership fees might start to creep up.
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 4:10AM BinaryTweedDeej said
@Colin (and @onan + @Urchin80) Totally agree with you guys. The original article didn't mention Clover at all, and was written more from my perspective working on IndieCity.com and trying to help other indie developers. I'd also agree that the first version was a disappointment, I should've spent much more time on it after getting all the press exposure, but unfortunately I had a kid on the way and was panicked into releasing it waaaaaaaay too early.
It could just be that Clover: A Curious Tale is on the dashboard promotion at the moment, but I agree there are much better poster-children for XBLIG than my game!
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It could just be that Clover: A Curious Tale is on the dashboard promotion at the moment, but I agree there are much better poster-children for XBLIG than my game!
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 4:18AM BinaryTweedDeej said
@Colin Oh, and in case you guys have only ever played the crappy original, here's free codes for the update:
FPHVY-JTBJM-FGCPX-VQ2XX-VKJYY
TYBD7-Q2MYQ-RH3QG-G4QVW-KJYRQ
HVG8Q-WH9VP-9W6J3-JKFP7-BRFFT
Let me know on Twitter how you get on, comments good or bad.
Reply
FPHVY-JTBJM-FGCPX-VQ2XX-VKJYY
TYBD7-Q2MYQ-RH3QG-G4QVW-KJYRQ
HVG8Q-WH9VP-9W6J3-JKFP7-BRFFT
Let me know on Twitter how you get on, comments good or bad.
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 4:42AM Jack Kevorkian said
@Colin you are dead on Clover is a terrible game. Such low quality compared to many, many titles.
I assume guys at Joystiq met and became friends with the developer. Sorry, the game sucks.
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I assume guys at Joystiq met and became friends with the developer. Sorry, the game sucks.
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 6:43AM BinaryTweedDeej said
@Jack Kevorkian I can honestly state that I've never met anyone from Joystiq. Have you played the revamped version with voice acting and all that, or only the original?
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Posted: Mar 19th 2011 10:55AM Urchin80 said
@BinaryTweedDeej
I didn't get one of those codes, but I will try out the demo for the newer one today. Some of these guys are being a little too harsh. I think the game would have been better received at a lower price though.
I check out the indie games daily. I've bought quite a few at 80 points, only one at 200 (it now costs 80), and I have never bought one for 400 or more. In fact, I rarely even try demos if they are 400 unless they look really good. It isn't that I can't afford 400 points, it's just that when you start comparing proper XBLA games (DOTW) for the same price, or other indie games for 1/5 of the price, it is hard to justify them.
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I didn't get one of those codes, but I will try out the demo for the newer one today. Some of these guys are being a little too harsh. I think the game would have been better received at a lower price though.
I check out the indie games daily. I've bought quite a few at 80 points, only one at 200 (it now costs 80), and I have never bought one for 400 or more. In fact, I rarely even try demos if they are 400 unless they look really good. It isn't that I can't afford 400 points, it's just that when you start comparing proper XBLA games (DOTW) for the same price, or other indie games for 1/5 of the price, it is hard to justify them.
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 11:28AM Urchin80 said
@Urchin80
I just used up my 8 minutes on the demo and it was pretty good. It definitely deserves more than the 3 stars it currently has. Many of the bad reviews are probably from people who haven't played it and based their decision entirely off of the games price or art style.
I'll be honest, I've never tried it before today because there was no chance that I was going to spend 400 points on it. I probably would have grabbed them at 80. I seem to recall some file size restrictions based on price though, so maybe that isn't even possible.
Anyway, I'd say this is one of the better indie games out there but it is handicapped by its price. For the same amount, a patient gamer could have Raskulls, A World of Keflings, Pac-Man, etc.
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I just used up my 8 minutes on the demo and it was pretty good. It definitely deserves more than the 3 stars it currently has. Many of the bad reviews are probably from people who haven't played it and based their decision entirely off of the games price or art style.
I'll be honest, I've never tried it before today because there was no chance that I was going to spend 400 points on it. I probably would have grabbed them at 80. I seem to recall some file size restrictions based on price though, so maybe that isn't even possible.
Anyway, I'd say this is one of the better indie games out there but it is handicapped by its price. For the same amount, a patient gamer could have Raskulls, A World of Keflings, Pac-Man, etc.
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 12:01PM BinaryTweedDeej said
@Urchin80 Track me down via Twitter or email, and I'll happily send you another code directly.
One of the complications with pricing on XBLIG is the context is lower-value than PC. Clover: A Curious Tale is available on both, and £3.99 seems like a fair price on PC. If I drop it to 240MSP on XBLIG (MS won't let me go any lower) then that's not really fair on the PC players - and a lot of the portals set the prices there, rather than me.
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One of the complications with pricing on XBLIG is the context is lower-value than PC. Clover: A Curious Tale is available on both, and £3.99 seems like a fair price on PC. If I drop it to 240MSP on XBLIG (MS won't let me go any lower) then that's not really fair on the PC players - and a lot of the portals set the prices there, rather than me.
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 12:38PM Colin said
@BinaryTweedDeej
If there's an improved version I might give it another go, but I got rid of my TV so I don't have anything to hook up my Xbox to. I just do straight PC gaming these days.
But I'm glad to hear you fixed some of the complaints, and hopefully you get some extra promotion for your future games. I really thing XBLIG needs a revamp.
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If there's an improved version I might give it another go, but I got rid of my TV so I don't have anything to hook up my Xbox to. I just do straight PC gaming these days.
But I'm glad to hear you fixed some of the complaints, and hopefully you get some extra promotion for your future games. I really thing XBLIG needs a revamp.
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 1:22PM BinaryTweedDeej said
@Colin Clover: A Curious Tale is also available on PC - check out binarytweed.com for a link to the demo, and for a selection of portals selling it. I think the Blitz 1UP site sells it the cheapest.
The newer version still isn't perfect, but it's a country mile better than the original, and I'd really like it for anyone with the original to try the new one and see how much better it is.
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The newer version still isn't perfect, but it's a country mile better than the original, and I'd really like it for anyone with the original to try the new one and see how much better it is.
Posted: Mar 21st 2011 3:15PM onan said
@BinaryTweedDeej I respect your humility and appreciate the free code you tried to give me that was snatched away by speedy joystiq users, but honestly, if your game deserves the money I'm more than happy to pay it.
I just have a hard time getting over the art style. It's not even that it's not some big name graphics engine, even the Unreal Engine has looked like crap in the hands of Team 17 with that god-awful looking Leisure Suit Larry abortion. Art style is actually more important to me than gameplay in a lot of cases. I'll play the hell out of a mediocre game with a great style, and put down a great one with a style I can't stand.
Admittedly, you had your work cut out for you. Sketchy styles are hard to pull off (few great example of success; one might be Puzzle Agent). I suppose I could have my opinion changed by a truly cohesive style regardless of how I feel about the look, since it really would be greater than the sum of its parts. I haven't given Clover a fair shake, having just looked at screenshots. I'll can definitely take the time out to check out the demo, at least, since you took the time to comment.
Now if someone from Team 17 responds to this thread, I'm going to quit the internet. it has become far too small and my anonymity has gone away. :(
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I just have a hard time getting over the art style. It's not even that it's not some big name graphics engine, even the Unreal Engine has looked like crap in the hands of Team 17 with that god-awful looking Leisure Suit Larry abortion. Art style is actually more important to me than gameplay in a lot of cases. I'll play the hell out of a mediocre game with a great style, and put down a great one with a style I can't stand.
Admittedly, you had your work cut out for you. Sketchy styles are hard to pull off (few great example of success; one might be Puzzle Agent). I suppose I could have my opinion changed by a truly cohesive style regardless of how I feel about the look, since it really would be greater than the sum of its parts. I haven't given Clover a fair shake, having just looked at screenshots. I'll can definitely take the time out to check out the demo, at least, since you took the time to comment.
Now if someone from Team 17 responds to this thread, I'm going to quit the internet. it has become far too small and my anonymity has gone away. :(
Posted: Mar 18th 2011 10:14PM (Unverified) said
I agree with Robborboy - there would be a flood of low-priced "games" that just let you get the max gamer score in seconds. Look at all the nonsense "massage" apps they've already got that just let you manually switch the vibration in a controller.
Posted: Mar 18th 2011 10:16PM Exu said
Personally, no. I don't want achievements in my XBLIG games. I think it would just saturate the market with crap even more.
Soon we'd be seeing "Massage Therapist Vibrator 11, buy now for 200 Gamerscore!".
Sure, Microsoft could improve the Indie Games store but it's not going to be a priority since it doesn't generate that much money for them.
I'm sure there are some great games on XBLIG but I'm just not interested at all.
I've trialled some demos, sure. But then even the best XBLIG titles have just felt like games that weren't good enough to make it to XBLA.
Soon we'd be seeing "Massage Therapist Vibrator 11, buy now for 200 Gamerscore!".
Sure, Microsoft could improve the Indie Games store but it's not going to be a priority since it doesn't generate that much money for them.
I'm sure there are some great games on XBLIG but I'm just not interested at all.
I've trialled some demos, sure. But then even the best XBLIG titles have just felt like games that weren't good enough to make it to XBLA.
Posted: Mar 18th 2011 11:08PM TheSecretMe said
@Exu
Maybe Microsoft would make more money from Indie Games sales IF people knew about them and could find them easily. It's called promotion.
The whole xbox.com site is weak though. It is not set up as a commercial website at all, but only as an information FAQ-style site. Too many clicks to find and purchase a game or add-on. flashy in-your-face attractiveness to it makes it boring and uninteresting.
A complete site makeover is in order, would help Microsoft's revenues, and would also help developers gain attention. I'd call it a non-hardware-related win-win situation for the whole Xbox franchise.
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Maybe Microsoft would make more money from Indie Games sales IF people knew about them and could find them easily. It's called promotion.
The whole xbox.com site is weak though. It is not set up as a commercial website at all, but only as an information FAQ-style site. Too many clicks to find and purchase a game or add-on. flashy in-your-face attractiveness to it makes it boring and uninteresting.
A complete site makeover is in order, would help Microsoft's revenues, and would also help developers gain attention. I'd call it a non-hardware-related win-win situation for the whole Xbox franchise.
Posted: Mar 18th 2011 11:39PM Exu said
@TheSecretMe To be fair I think they dropped the ball from the start and no amount of promotion's gonna bring it back. It'd be more of a salvage operation than anything. It's sad but I'm sure I'm not the only person with the following mindset:
New game on XBLIG? Too late, you lost me ages ago. I've gone.
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New game on XBLIG? Too late, you lost me ages ago. I've gone.
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 12:33AM (Unverified) said
@Exu If by not good enough, you mean not 5, 10 or 15 dollars, then I agree. If you mean they are not worthy of our attention, I strongly disagree. Vorpal is a very slick shooter and I MAED A GAEM WITH ZOMBIES IN IT is worth every bit of the buck I paid for it.
The idea that a quality gaming experience can not be had for a dollar is EXACTLY what's holding gaming back.
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The idea that a quality gaming experience can not be had for a dollar is EXACTLY what's holding gaming back.
Posted: Mar 18th 2011 10:26PM jsx said
No. If they believe in their games they should have to go through QA and certification and earn their Gamerscore.
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 12:34AM (Unverified) said
@jsx I MADE A GAME WITH ZOMBIES IN IT is not a game that deserves a flashy five dollar or ten dollar XBLA send off. However, I would kill to get some leaderboards and maybe a few basic score achievements out of it.
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Posted: Mar 18th 2011 10:28PM HybridPara said
If indie devs are for some reason striving for achievements, then they should just keep in-game rewards and unlockables. That's as close (and as rewarding) as they'll get
Posted: Mar 18th 2011 10:47PM (Unverified) said
Why not develop their own version of gamer points? Like Indie Cred Points or something similar. It might not be viewable until you get into one of the games but having a gamer score rack up while playing breath of death VII would be pretty sweet.
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 12:15AM fallouthirteen said
@(Unverified) Was just thinking this, why not make a second gamerscore thing that shows up alongside the current one. Indie games will only add to it and only indie games can add to it.
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Posted: Mar 20th 2011 3:12PM (Unverified) said
@fallouthirteen
The only thing Microsoft would have to do is add a small app that runs in the background of indie games to tally up the gamerscore. There is no need to have a new dashboard icon. Maybe an indie game that allows you to buy/unlock new stuff with "indie cred" could add a communative effort to ndie developers.
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The only thing Microsoft would have to do is add a small app that runs in the background of indie games to tally up the gamerscore. There is no need to have a new dashboard icon. Maybe an indie game that allows you to buy/unlock new stuff with "indie cred" could add a communative effort to ndie developers.
Posted: Mar 18th 2011 10:48PM killer rin said
Best way to stop Free achievement games is to add another rule to the Publishing system they already have
since the games go through a Review process by the other community members, they add in a rating option for them to rate how easy achivements are... if they are too easy it goes back to the dev to make them harder to get
since the games go through a Review process by the other community members, they add in a rating option for them to rate how easy achivements are... if they are too easy it goes back to the dev to make them harder to get
Posted: Mar 18th 2011 11:01PM huffhuffhuff said
reality is that a lot of gamers care about their achievement and trophies. So no surprise here. It makes a lot of sense to implement something like achievos for indie games. i know a lot of people who wouldn't play some indie games b/c they don't have achivo. I care less about elitists who want to rule this out, but it works for rest of population.
Posted: Mar 18th 2011 11:44PM jdlyga said
The Xbox Live indie just needs a better interface. It's hard to find quality stuff from the mountains of junk like baby maker and office affair. How about genre categories? Top downloaded this week? Top downloaded of all time? Hot this week?
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 12:29AM (Unverified) said
@kgoo867 What, you mean like the Avatar game that let you get 1000 points in a ridiculously short time span?
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 12:38AM (Unverified) said
The thing all the e-peen wavers concerned with their gamerscore are forgetting is that achievements are also a great source of word-of-mouth advertising. I've bought games I knew my friends were playing and on more than a few occasions, I've dusted off old games because I saw them pop up in my friends' chievo lists.
Of course, when you consider how many full retail games there are that rain down achievements for doing almost nothing (Avatar), I do not see what's wrong with letting these little dollar games have 50 points to call their own.
Of course, when you consider how many full retail games there are that rain down achievements for doing almost nothing (Avatar), I do not see what's wrong with letting these little dollar games have 50 points to call their own.
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 12:54AM Epoque said
@(Unverified) I don't need an achievement list for that. I know what games my friends are playing because I talk to my friends. You know, because they are my friends. The keyword being 'friends' here ... f-r-i-e-n-d-s.
Instead of railing against 'e-peen wavers', how about you just have fun playing your games the way you like to play them and not worry about how others play their games seeing as how it does not affect you at all?
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Instead of railing against 'e-peen wavers', how about you just have fun playing your games the way you like to play them and not worry about how others play their games seeing as how it does not affect you at all?
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 12:48AM Epoque said
@(Unverified) Avatar's achievements were the result of a lack of creativity from a developer/publisher that just didn't care at all. I highly doubt it was made as easy as it was to sell to achievement whores. Conversely, looking at Indie Games as they are today: a few gems in a cesspool of knockoffs and me-toos, it's easy to imagine those producing games in the latter two categories trying to make a quick buck making cheap achievement games.
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 2:32AM OrangeGamer said
I think certain Indie games really deserve this sort of thing. Off the top of my head, I think of Breath of Death. Maybe cap it to 100 Achievement points per indie game? That's about 5 achievements.
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 2:57AM TJF588 said
Ah yes: PIXEL, Breath of Death, Cthulhu Saves the World, the radiangames, er, games... Even if they're worth it on their own, it'd still be aces to have little icons proving my playtime with them.
If I've learned anything from using Kongregate, Achievements are a GREAT way to boost awareness of a game. So many that I would have passed by if not for, "Hey, want a badge? Part of a quest, too!" Heck, just the name or look of the achievement could entice me to check the game out. When you've got a lot to choose from in wasting your time, a little snag like that is definitely worth the pseudo-cash-in.
If CSTW[insert initialization here] has cheevos on Steam, I'd definitely also like to add 'em to my Gamerscore. I "main" the PS3 when it comes to consoles, so the XBLIG Marketplace is one of the few places I find exclusives at.
If I've learned anything from using Kongregate, Achievements are a GREAT way to boost awareness of a game. So many that I would have passed by if not for, "Hey, want a badge? Part of a quest, too!" Heck, just the name or look of the achievement could entice me to check the game out. When you've got a lot to choose from in wasting your time, a little snag like that is definitely worth the pseudo-cash-in.
If CSTW[insert initialization here] has cheevos on Steam, I'd definitely also like to add 'em to my Gamerscore. I "main" the PS3 when it comes to consoles, so the XBLIG Marketplace is one of the few places I find exclusives at.
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 3:41AM Dark Mirage said
Achievements aren't the problem. It's the complete and utter lack of display for the damn thing. There should be a dashboard icon featuring the most highly rated Indie titles or something.
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 5:53AM Epsilon said
Am I the only one who found it hilarious when he described gamerscore as measurable?
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 7:24AM Firebug2009 said
i was always interested in the Cthulhu Saves the World game since it came out, but with no chievos :( i never got it....BUT with this new update coming i just went to add is to my download queue...DAMN IT...i have only 220 points, i guess it'll have to wait for the full version...
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 8:35AM Stahlbrand said
No. Back to your indie ghetto. Build for PC or smart phone, like real indie devs.
Posted: Mar 19th 2011 2:28PM tendoboy1984 said
@Stahlbrand
What's wrong with indie devs branching out to different platforms? Yes PC development is the easiest, but it's such a limited audience. Most people who have PCs don't use them for gaming.
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What's wrong with indie devs branching out to different platforms? Yes PC development is the easiest, but it's such a limited audience. Most people who have PCs don't use them for gaming.
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