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Reader Comments (53)

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 2:48PM Brett from Atlanta said

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double of

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 2:50PM Brett from Atlanta said

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@Brett from Atlanta
normally I'm not a typo Nazi, but first sentence is pretty hard to overlook.
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 2:49PM Aussiemon said

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An interesting article :)
I'd point out that Portal sold more copies for its entertainment value than its educational value, but still...

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 2:55PM Epoque said

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And I'd point out that Portal's entertainment value, to me, is in its ability to make you think and dissect the challenges more than in any other game ... on top of a perfectly woven narrative that doesn't try to make you feel like you're 'playing a movie' of course.
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:14PM PointlessPuppies said

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@Aussiemon
You've completely missed the entire point of Gabe's speech then.

Gabe's point is that entertainment and education are not mutually exclusive and shouldn't be considered as such.
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 5:14PM corna said

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@PointlessPuppies You don't need Gabe to tell you to work that out. We've had puzzle games for decades (many are much more difficult than Portal 2). Not to mention the fact that pretty much any action game requires solving puzzles (and while the puzzles are usually simpler, the solutions tend to be harder to put into practice). So most games are educational games, and this of course includes fun and successful games. But most games are NOT "educational" games, because these are games made with the intention of educating and tend to be bad.
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 5:27PM PointlessPuppies said

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@corna
When did I say I needed Gabe to tell me that? I knew that already.

You also seem to miss Gabe's point. Puzzle solving isn't inherently educational, and the stigma of educational games being bad isn't a reason to completely discredit any developer trying to make an educational game that's actually entertaining.
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 2:50PM Andrew12h said

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Okay kids, today in History we'll be playing COD.

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:30PM ComedyInK said

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@Andrew12h

I learned a lot, up until CoD4, then it only words like hard-scoper, Bad Kid, MLG, and randoms.
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 2:51PM (Unverified) said

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"the majority of of...." first sentence. anyone else notice?

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 2:52PM FragSinatra said

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true dat

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 2:53PM Zertoss said

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I learned everything I know from the Fact Sphere.

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:08PM Regularpants said

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@Zertoss Better than the wisdom cube.
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:00PM The Only Girl said

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Favorite part of history for me was when time almost collapsed and we had to send a boy, a princess, a mechanist, a robot, a cavewoman, a frog, and a vampire to save us all by flying across key points in time. You guys remember that bucket? I do.

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:02PM DarknessBear said

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Don't say that Newell!!! Fox is listening, they wont get it...

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:06PM MasterYogurt said

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We need more games that have the opportunity to teach and engage people of all ages, but especially children.

One thing children LOVE is being able to design something and then have it work. I spent countless hours in The Incredible Toon Machine's and Lode Runner: The Legend Returns's level makers. This teaches just by letting kids experiment, learning cause and effect, how to plan, how to make challenges, etc.

This isn't a "The sky is blue, 2+2 is four" type of education. This is teaching children many things, in a way that can't be necessarily assessed in a standardized test.

Abstract education is way less powerful and important than experiential lessons and direct observation.

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:07PM Space Cobra said

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IMO, good games always make you learn, be it morality or even spelling (hell, comic books helped me out with grammar!).

Games can be fun and educational on many different levels and to many different ages. Some folks forget that in development or playing. I am all for. "Let's just have fun." But an interesting and compelling game will be on my mind far longer than a more simplistic one.

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:08PM MatthewBlackwell said

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He's absolutely right, but what's really interesting to me (especially as a high school English teacher) is the idea that games themselves could be texts to be studied, just like To Kill a Mockingbird or what-have-you. It would require a comprehensible critical response to videogames (which, um, doesn't really exist yet), but besides the obvious financial barriers and societal pressure to ignore the widespread influence of video games, it's kind of baffling that we can study books, we can study films, we can study radio plays, but students have no way to critically look at video games, something that's probably WAY more influential to them than The Crysalids or whatever.

Anyways, I wrote a lot more on this subject in the past, and I don't know if it's verboten to link to your own work, but I'm going to do it anyways because this is something I'm super passionate about: http://www.vigigames.com/?p=2005

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 4:07PM Shadowbender said

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@MatthewBlackwell

You sound like the best teacher ever.
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 4:18PM Courtney said

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@MatthewBlackwell

I think that we'll see more of your attitude percolate through the system as more gamers grow up to be teachers, professor, academics, writers, and more.

I'm in my 30s and have been heavily in gaming culture since being a little kid (growing up in the old school arcades). And the changes in how people approach video games is changing, just not as fast as some of us would like.

Have you read Lucky Wander Boy? Great novel, and something that approaches video games, video game culture and the philosophy of gaming in a unique way.
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 4:58PM cantwait2bhome said

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@MatthewBlackwell
Man, I read your article and then couldn't help but keep on reading your other posts. Really cool blog, dude. I really like your take on video games and I also find the way you write to be intriguing. I'm definitely subscribing to your RSS feed!
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:14PM gordeaux said

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Also sees no distinction between apples and donuts.

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:23PM eat it said

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@gordeaux

I was gonna say, games and fitness games.

but apples and donuts works too
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:34PM RedgeHammer said

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@gordeaux
If your comment means what I inferred it to mean, then you are an insensitive dingleberry in need of maturing. If you were not implying that Gabe N. has an eating problem, then accept my apologies
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:17PM Courtney said

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He's dead on, and I think there are plenty of examples in other media where entertainment and education meet. I love novels that explore philosophical theories through the story, or include heavy amounts of real history in them. And hard science fiction novels that try and communicate the real science through the story.

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:22PM Gaddes said

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I'd love to see Gabe speak on Fox News... watch them fumble around trying to find non-existent holes in his amazing pro-games speeches.

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 10:05PM Jetleo1 said

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@Gaddes Gaben always wins. No contest, ever.
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:22PM LainaLain said

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Portal is probably one of the funnest and funniest games I've ever seen.

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:40PM SynthOno said

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This reminds me of Eternal Sonata, and why it kinda sucked.

If you don't recall, the game was about Frederik Chopin's fever dreams as he died. It had neat, educational little sequences played over lovely Chopin music detailing parts of his life and inspirations for his compositions. They were great, best parts of the game by far. Unfortunately, to get to those parts you had to play a boring JRPG with bad level design, annoying characters, and a infinitely less interesting story involving tax policies. The educational and game parts were kept separate with a 50 foot electrified fence, and the game suffered for it, and strangely the educational parts were significantly more entertaining.

There is a ton of cool stuff that happened in history, if someone could use a game to tell those stories it'd be great. Just don't make it a boring JRPG.

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 5:05PM Vladeon said

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@SynthOno

I think Assassins Creed 2 and AC:B did a fantastic job of incorporating education and fun gameplay. I learned a great deal about the history of Tuscany during the late 1400s seeing as almost everything in that game actually happened. Not to mention I know all kinds of bad words in Italian too.
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:44PM C1ph3rDivyne said

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Portal 2 will be my first Valve game ever so obviously I don't know that much about the company other than the big things they're known for (probably b/c I've never been a PC gamer which was kind of their choice platform till recently...or maybe it still is). But what I can say are two things: (1) I wholeheartedly agree that when you think about it, there's really a blurred line btw what's considered "educational" and "just a game," and (2) Mr. Gabe Newell is a very intelligent man. Kudos to him, Valve, and all the dope Valvites that make it happen!

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:44PM Miranda Lawson said

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Roman Bellic gambling school education. Comes with your very own serbian cousin to save you when you ace the class and lose all your money to russians.

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 10:07PM Jetleo1 said

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@Miranda Lawson However they'll forget to mention not to push him too far or else this will happen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6bv85hoQBM
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Posted: Jun 24th 2011 9:09AM Miranda Lawson said

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@Jetleo1 That'll be the final test.
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:44PM IronClawt said

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Someone tell him to shut up and make Half Life 2.

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:45PM IronClawt said

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@IronClawt
Or even part 3.
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:50PM FlameChucks76 said

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@IronClawt

You mean 3..........right?
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:55PM Vuvuzelas said

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@IronClawt lol
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 10:08PM Jetleo1 said

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@IronClawt .....someone just herpderped.
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 3:52PM Tihn said

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In Gabes eyes.
In Gaves robot eyes.

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 4:15PM WarrenEBB said

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ahhhh, where is the video of this? anyone?

(there is video of Jesse Schell's super cool keynote: here:
http://gamesforchange.org/festival2011/video/
click "g4c2011 wed pm_2"
at about the 58:10 mark)

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 4:46PM jrr said

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I hate it when people mince different concepts together like this just so they can try and create a point where there is none. The reason we see distinctions between entertainment games and education games is because we've accepted different definitions for them. Math Blaster is an educational game, Oregon Trail is an educational game, etc. etc. These are games that were made for the specific purpose of teaching specific knowledge. And by "specific knowledge," I'm getting at teaching things like the actual formulas for gravity or force, as opposed to teaching broad ideas like "stuff falls" or "stuff that moves fast hits hard."

The strong distinction between education and entertainment games is there because games happen to be developed very specifically for one or the other of those two purposes. No one is arguing that entertainment games can't be educational or that educational games can't be entertaining, so for him to try and present this as some new idea that no one's ever considered is laughable. To re-emphasize my point: He's trying to refute this opposing argument of educational =/= entertainment games, an argument that only exists based on our definition of the two and how they are positioned in the market. But his rebuttal completely disregards those definitions and market placement, and instead looks at the the two more broadly, which in turn makes the two arguments have nothing to do with each other.

If anything, he could be arguing that games shouldn't need to be developed with one of those two purposes in mind, should be able to satisfy both equally, and shouldn't have to exist in different markets. But if that's the case, then he's gonna need to offer some better support for that claim, 'cause Portal 2 ain't it. No one's gonna pass any science class because they played Portal 2; it can't completely supplement studying a text book chapter or doing typical schoolwork assignments the way games that are specifically made for educational purposes can.

Also, I like how his quote that starts "The interesting thing about Portal 2 is..." seems to completely neglect these things called "puzzle games."

/likely regrettable rant

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 4:47PM (Unverified) said

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I did ctrl+f and wrote half life, wasn't in the article so i didnt read it

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 4:49PM kyte420 said

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Thats what Al Gore shoulda said.

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 5:13PM EliminatorZigma said

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Someone's got it right.

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 5:51PM Dick Socrates said

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Newell sees no distinction between your money and his bank account.

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 5:57PM Phoenix said

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So what's the educational value of TF2?

Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 6:28PM Benjamin Gilbert said

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@Phoenix I think Gabe might defer to the educational value of strategy and teamwork, of the mathematical equations going on behind buffing a heavy with a medic while he shoots at the opposing team. There's lots of incidental learning that occurs while playing games of a wide variety, and I don't think it should be so easily written off.
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 7:20PM Phoenix said

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@Ben

Well I was just poking fun, but now that you bring it up...it does seem at least slightly educational.

That Gabe. He so sly.
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Posted: Jun 23rd 2011 10:11PM Jetleo1 said

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@Phoenix It teaches you history is very boring and that hats should rule your life.
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