Eidos Montreal fesses up to poor boss fights in Deus Ex: Human Revolution
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Even though the recent release of "The Missing Link" DLC featured a more appropriate boss encounter, the majority of Deus Ex: Human Revolution's boss fights force players to forgo whichever strategy they employed throughout the game and, you know, just shoot 'em in the face. Unless that is your strategy, in which case all we have to say is: you monster.
Eidos Montréal producer David Anfossi told Edge that farming out the boss fights to Grip Entertainment was a mistake -- not because Grip failed, but because the implementation and design of boss encounters was poor. "We knew that it would be a weakness for the game, that we had to make a compromise to deliver it [on] two levels. First, the boss fights were forced, which is not the Deus Ex experience. Second, there is no mix [of] solutions to tackle the boss fights, which is not Deus Ex either. We knew that before the release of the game, but there had to be some compromise. It [was] our decision."
That's not to say Anfossi isn't proud of Deus Ex -- he's quite content with the hacking, stealth, social and combat aspects of the game -- but if he had a chance to do it all again, he'd handle the boss fights differently rather than taking them out entirely. "There are two options: no boss fights, or do boss fights correctly. I'm pretty sure that now we have the knowledge to do it correctly."
Eidos Montréal producer David Anfossi told Edge that farming out the boss fights to Grip Entertainment was a mistake -- not because Grip failed, but because the implementation and design of boss encounters was poor. "We knew that it would be a weakness for the game, that we had to make a compromise to deliver it [on] two levels. First, the boss fights were forced, which is not the Deus Ex experience. Second, there is no mix [of] solutions to tackle the boss fights, which is not Deus Ex either. We knew that before the release of the game, but there had to be some compromise. It [was] our decision."
That's not to say Anfossi isn't proud of Deus Ex -- he's quite content with the hacking, stealth, social and combat aspects of the game -- but if he had a chance to do it all again, he'd handle the boss fights differently rather than taking them out entirely. "There are two options: no boss fights, or do boss fights correctly. I'm pretty sure that now we have the knowledge to do it correctly."
Reader Comments (58)
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 8:44AM Slixshot said
Eidos Montreal's first dive into the game industry was Deus Ex: HR. That fact alone makes up for the mediocre boss fights. The game was fantastic, and easily my (SotY) surprise of the year. I look forward to seeing what they do next!
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 9:38AM OnToGloryReturns said
@Slixshot
That it's not on the VGA GOTY nominees list shows how god awful bad those awards are
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That it's not on the VGA GOTY nominees list shows how god awful bad those awards are
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 11:00AM TrueFlyingCow said
@stiqlol
I thought that boss fight was okay, there were enough stealth options there to sneak past the soldiers without confronting them, depending on your augments.
As far as the other bosses go... the boss fights definitely didn't feel like they went down how my character would've wanted to handle them since I was trying to be fairly peaceful, talking through things, and giving people chances at redemption rather than killing everything. But the boss fights did give me a reason to keep carrying a rocket launcher everywhere.
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I thought that boss fight was okay, there were enough stealth options there to sneak past the soldiers without confronting them, depending on your augments.
As far as the other bosses go... the boss fights definitely didn't feel like they went down how my character would've wanted to handle them since I was trying to be fairly peaceful, talking through things, and giving people chances at redemption rather than killing everything. But the boss fights did give me a reason to keep carrying a rocket launcher everywhere.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 11:46AM Faceless Troll said
@TrueFlyingCow Who needs a rocket launcher? Get the Typhoon aug and you can kill the bosses with two hits.
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Posted: Nov 4th 2011 2:28PM WiredKnight said
@Slixshot
Actually it's not. They're the same team that made the renowned and well-respected Thief series.
It's a nice sentiment anyway!
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Actually it's not. They're the same team that made the renowned and well-respected Thief series.
It's a nice sentiment anyway!
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 8:51AM foxhound said
I thought it was done on purpose...?
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 8:53AM Slomoshun said
Seeing how I could defeat every boss without taking any dmg on any difficulty....yea
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 10:15AM This Little Man Says His Name Is said
@Slomoshun
And? Unless a game has a scripted event that damages you it's possible to beat all bosses in all games on any difficulty without getting damaged.
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And? Unless a game has a scripted event that damages you it's possible to beat all bosses in all games on any difficulty without getting damaged.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 11:54AM Faceless Troll said
@This Little Man Says His Name Is Most games don't let you beat the bosses with two hits.
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Posted: Nov 4th 2011 8:59AM DeadpooI said
Bioware can learn from this man. When people complain about something you don't remove it like what happened with the Mass Effect series, you improve it.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 11:59AM Liquidfingers said
@DeadpooI
so true...which is why i'm afraid for ME3. i think too many people complained that the series just wasn't dude-bro enough.
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so true...which is why i'm afraid for ME3. i think too many people complained that the series just wasn't dude-bro enough.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 12:15PM Korbie said
@DeadpooI
I think they have learned this lesson, to some extent.
There's a going to be return to deeper RPG mechanics and weapon customization, grenades are coming back and since they aren't just pitching the scanning system, I'm hoping they're looking on ways to improve it.
And then here's something I pulled from the Mass Effect Wiki:
"Casey Hudson had previously indicated that the vehicle exploration segment of the Mass Effect 2 DLC pack Overlord was an attempt at addressing issues players had with the exploration segments in the original Mass Effect, and lessons learned from its implementation could be used to implement similar segments in Mass Effect 3."
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I think they have learned this lesson, to some extent.
There's a going to be return to deeper RPG mechanics and weapon customization, grenades are coming back and since they aren't just pitching the scanning system, I'm hoping they're looking on ways to improve it.
And then here's something I pulled from the Mass Effect Wiki:
"Casey Hudson had previously indicated that the vehicle exploration segment of the Mass Effect 2 DLC pack Overlord was an attempt at addressing issues players had with the exploration segments in the original Mass Effect, and lessons learned from its implementation could be used to implement similar segments in Mass Effect 3."
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 9:04AM Steel Toad said
"We knew that it would be a weakness for the game,"
So, why put them in? Boss fights were completely out of place for that game, period.
I used a cheat code on the PC to get past them because I couldn't be bothered with the frustration. The boss fights completely broke the way I played, so skipping them kept the immersion going. Poor choice on Eidos' part.
So, why put them in? Boss fights were completely out of place for that game, period.
I used a cheat code on the PC to get past them because I couldn't be bothered with the frustration. The boss fights completely broke the way I played, so skipping them kept the immersion going. Poor choice on Eidos' part.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 9:30AM TasticBycrom said
@Steel Toad
Booses weren't really out of place. The first Deus Ex had bosses too. The new ones made sense in the plot, but lacked the open areas they should have. Lack of options is really where they failed.
That being said, only the first fight was really jarring. By the time you get to the second, you've gained enough skills that it doesn't matter what you were attempting to specialize in.
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Booses weren't really out of place. The first Deus Ex had bosses too. The new ones made sense in the plot, but lacked the open areas they should have. Lack of options is really where they failed.
That being said, only the first fight was really jarring. By the time you get to the second, you've gained enough skills that it doesn't matter what you were attempting to specialize in.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 11:09AM Luciano said
@Steel Toad
Sometimes a dev makes a bad decision early during development and by the time they notice it's too late to turn back and fix it because they have the publisher breathing down their neck.
So my guess is that they knew the boss fights would be bad by the time they released the game, but not by the time they still had the capacity to do anything about it.
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Sometimes a dev makes a bad decision early during development and by the time they notice it's too late to turn back and fix it because they have the publisher breathing down their neck.
So my guess is that they knew the boss fights would be bad by the time they released the game, but not by the time they still had the capacity to do anything about it.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 11:57AM Faceless Troll said
@Steel Toad The real hilarity is the bosses were so easy you didn't have to cheat. You just needed the right augs.
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Posted: Nov 4th 2011 1:23PM kentuckyfried said
@Steel Toad
Man, and I thought I was lazy, taking advantage of boss #2 getting stuck in a corner.
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Man, and I thought I was lazy, taking advantage of boss #2 getting stuck in a corner.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 2:37PM WiredKnight said
@TasticBycrom
Yea, I was actually more disappointed with how the bosses were introduced (or weren't, as the case may be) than how the fights played out. You get to that section of the level, all immersed and soaking in the atmosphere and learning more about the conspiracies and the game jumps in and shouts at you "BOSS TIME," with little to no warning or explanation or exposition.
I found it really ridiculous that you fight that first girl to the death, realizing she doesn't say a single goddamn word the entire game. You know who she works for and why she wants to fight you, but you never know who she is, what her motivations are. I don't think it's unreasonable to have expected at least a few lines of dialogue before she tries to electrocute me!
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Yea, I was actually more disappointed with how the bosses were introduced (or weren't, as the case may be) than how the fights played out. You get to that section of the level, all immersed and soaking in the atmosphere and learning more about the conspiracies and the game jumps in and shouts at you "BOSS TIME," with little to no warning or explanation or exposition.
I found it really ridiculous that you fight that first girl to the death, realizing she doesn't say a single goddamn word the entire game. You know who she works for and why she wants to fight you, but you never know who she is, what her motivations are. I don't think it's unreasonable to have expected at least a few lines of dialogue before she tries to electrocute me!
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 9:11AM blessrok said
I don't see why they gave another dev a go at just the boss fights in the first place. I mean the game was pushed back a few times and has been in development since 2007 by that behind the scenes vid that came w/the game...sooo why not use that time to develop the boss fights themselves? Sure you say it's a mistake, but why did it happen? That's what I'd like to know.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 9:40AM OnToGloryReturns said
@blessrok
Because even though the release was pushed back there are still budgetary and resource constraints
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Because even though the release was pushed back there are still budgetary and resource constraints
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 11:49AM Mujokan said
@blessrok
We read the link...
"The problem was not the supplier, it was what we did with them. The boss fights were too much for the team to do internally in the time we had. We totally underestimated the effort to do that correctly. We had to work with an external supplier with that, but the design and everything is from the team at Eidos Montreal. We knew that it would be a weakness for the game, that we had to make a compromise to deliver it [on] two levels. First, the boss fights were forced, which is not the Deus Ex experience. Second, there is no mix [of] solutions to tackle the boss fights, which is not Deus Ex either. We knew that before the release of the game, but there had to be some compromise. It [was] our decision... It has been a nightmare, to be honest. We started from scratch. From recruitment to release date, it's been a nightmare."
Reply
We read the link...
"The problem was not the supplier, it was what we did with them. The boss fights were too much for the team to do internally in the time we had. We totally underestimated the effort to do that correctly. We had to work with an external supplier with that, but the design and everything is from the team at Eidos Montreal. We knew that it would be a weakness for the game, that we had to make a compromise to deliver it [on] two levels. First, the boss fights were forced, which is not the Deus Ex experience. Second, there is no mix [of] solutions to tackle the boss fights, which is not Deus Ex either. We knew that before the release of the game, but there had to be some compromise. It [was] our decision... It has been a nightmare, to be honest. We started from scratch. From recruitment to release date, it's been a nightmare."
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 12:04PM KungFuChaosNinja said
@blessrok
1. It's a huge game.
2. It's a new studio trying to make their first game a huge game in a beloved franchise.
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1. It's a huge game.
2. It's a new studio trying to make their first game a huge game in a beloved franchise.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 1:38PM kentuckyfried said
@KungFuChaosNinja
Heh...for a first-time effort, HR was an outstanding job! I didn't know that.
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Heh...for a first-time effort, HR was an outstanding job! I didn't know that.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 9:20AM Warlock234 said
I always thought that chick was pretty hot.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 1:27PM kentuckyfried said
@Warlock234
The chick was pretty hot. She reminds of Rhianna.
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The chick was pretty hot. She reminds of Rhianna.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 1:28PM kentuckyfried said
@Warlock234
The chick was pretty hot. She reminds of Rhianna.
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The chick was pretty hot. She reminds of Rhianna.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 9:38AM Korbie said
The rest of the game was so absolutely brilliant that the mediocre boss fights weren't really much of a problem for me.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 10:15AM Mortegro said
We'll see what they do for the sequel. :)
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 10:31AM Mujokan said
My take from the whole thing was that technically they're a top-notch developer, but they have problems with story. Not an uncommon problem. It wasn't just the boss fights that were a problem (especially the final one, WTF) but the story just didn't have enough emotional punch for me. I think the way they dealt with the main antagonists was another aspect of that issue.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 10:48AM BizarroPete said
Maybe they should make a director's cut ala Dead Rising 2: OTR.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 12:03PM KungFuChaosNinja said
@BizarroPete
No, let's not milk a good thing. Just move on and make a new Deus Ex game.
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No, let's not milk a good thing. Just move on and make a new Deus Ex game.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 10:49AM zombieguy said
They suck but I got over it. When I play the game now they are pretty easy to take down and don't really detract from the experience at all. The only problem was is that they have barely any character development. They are just hunks of augmented meat that try to kill you.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 11:24AM Funkmaster General said
@zombieguy
Especially the woman, who had no dialogue unless you count grunting and yelling during the battle.
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Especially the woman, who had no dialogue unless you count grunting and yelling during the battle.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 1:30PM kentuckyfried said
@blessrok
The game should be standalone enough to have that char. development without any other sources though.
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The game should be standalone enough to have that char. development without any other sources though.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 11:05AM PN04 said
@That One Guy
It's funny, after getting shot to death 7 or 8 times by the first boss I eventually did enough damage to him that I could just hide in a corner and he killed HIMSELF with his own grenades. I hope the other bosses assist my stealth tactics this well, if so I'll have no complaints at all!
It's funny, after getting shot to death 7 or 8 times by the first boss I eventually did enough damage to him that I could just hide in a corner and he killed HIMSELF with his own grenades. I hope the other bosses assist my stealth tactics this well, if so I'll have no complaints at all!
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 11:15AM Chichok said
But the boss fights in the first one were easy as well (except for the first two which could be optional and the last one). All I did was Dragon Tooth and activated the extra strength aug.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 11:28AM sammo21 said
Boss fights weren't the only thing in Deus EX:HR that I would call poor...
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 12:02PM KungFuChaosNinja said
@sammo21
I'm glad you're speaking for yourself.
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I'm glad you're speaking for yourself.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 1:35PM kentuckyfried said
@sammo21
I didn't feel that it uniformly had as much free options as advertised. The game for me somehow lost quite a bit of momentum upon arriving in Asia.
Then there was the issue of ammo shortages.
And the issue of battery shortages.
It was irritating having to go through this like a survival horror title. hoarding all the resources.
Notice too that the trailers were much more dramatic than how things played out in the actual game.
It wasn't a bad game, and maybe my expectations were way too high,
but I don't feel that this is deserving of a GOTY award. It might help to play the original and use that as the standard of what this game should be (though the first one is ugly as sin), something I haven't gotten around to yet.
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I didn't feel that it uniformly had as much free options as advertised. The game for me somehow lost quite a bit of momentum upon arriving in Asia.
Then there was the issue of ammo shortages.
And the issue of battery shortages.
It was irritating having to go through this like a survival horror title. hoarding all the resources.
Notice too that the trailers were much more dramatic than how things played out in the actual game.
It wasn't a bad game, and maybe my expectations were way too high,
but I don't feel that this is deserving of a GOTY award. It might help to play the original and use that as the standard of what this game should be (though the first one is ugly as sin), something I haven't gotten around to yet.
Posted: Nov 4th 2011 1:40PM sammo21 said
@kentuckyfried Well, as my downvote proves Joystiq's comment voting system is dumb and used merely to punish people with contrary opinions.
I found the gun play to be bad...the stealth was far to easy...your right about the game losing steam in Asia...the game is literally copy and pasted from the original DE: the way levels are designed, the way you get to new levels, the way levels are cordoned off, the way the city seems full of nothing but mannequins, the way the battery system is implemented is extremely poor, the the power progression has no rewards as by the end of the game you have everything, etc.
I don't think the game sucks but I do think some people had the "ooh new deus ex!" blinders on.
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I found the gun play to be bad...the stealth was far to easy...your right about the game losing steam in Asia...the game is literally copy and pasted from the original DE: the way levels are designed, the way you get to new levels, the way levels are cordoned off, the way the city seems full of nothing but mannequins, the way the battery system is implemented is extremely poor, the the power progression has no rewards as by the end of the game you have everything, etc.
I don't think the game sucks but I do think some people had the "ooh new deus ex!" blinders on.








