Understandably, BioWare heads Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk seem tired of beating the drum for Star Wars: The Old Republic's subscription-based business model. I didn't actually bother asking them about their thoughts on subscription vs free-to-play gaming during an interview early last week, but Zeschuk launched into a spirited defense nonetheless, perhaps conditioned by being asked over and over in the run up to SW: TOR's launch last Monday.
"You look at the online space in general and it's fragmenting into all these different areas, but the core still works. The subscription model still works," Zeschuk said. "We know a lot of people say, 'Oh, everything's just going free-to-play.' But that's just one slice. There's one slice that's free-to-play, there's one slice that's social, there's traditional subscription still going." He was also quick to point out that, "it's obviously been the free-to-play guys trumpeting this," though his own company certainly isn't above working in the free-to-play space, as evidenced by Warhammer: Wrath of Heroes.
"I'm not saying it's better or worse. It just doesn't supplant the other things. 'Cause we can do some things no one else can," Zeschuk added. In his eyes, a free-to-play dev isn't able to throw the same amount of resources and time at an MMO project, and that marks a big differentiation between the two business models. "The free-to-play people can't invest to the level we can invest, and can't create something of the size and scale of something we can create," he said. The idea that free-to-play will take over all other MMO business models, he said is, "from a business perspective, ridiculous."
Beyond SW: TOR, BioWare's Mythic branch is also operating Warhammer Online and Dark Age of Camelot, among others, so I asked how many MMOs BioWare - now a label itself under the EA name, encompassing eight studios around the world - could sustain. "I think it's the kinda thing that you can adjust the size of the business and what you're doing with it to make it a good investment," Zeschuk told me. While he admitted that "you don't want to be making a whole bunch of them [MMOs] at the same time," his view is that MMOs are a scalable business - this attitude is exemplified by BioWare's use of multiple studios to piece together The Old Republic, rather than massively scaling up a single location and potentially facing massive layoffs down the road.
Before moving off the subject, Muzyka managed to sneak in a bit of a tease regarding BioWare's future work in the free-to-play space. "You can re-imagine things and kinda envision them in different ways," he said of the business model's advantages. "We have some other stuff we haven't announced yet coming from our play-for-free team that I'm really excited about. It's gonna bring back some IP that people have a lot of fond memories around." As with most of our BioWare speculation, we're gonna go ahead and hope for some form of a Jade Empire "re-imagining." Pretty much anything Jade Empire, is what we're saying.
Reader Comments (49)
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 1:59PM TaintedKane said
@Lance001
I have it but never finished it. It was unique by the fact I never played a kung fu RPG before. Think KOTOR but with Kung Fu Can't remember too much about it but it was fun.
Reply
I have it but never finished it. It was unique by the fact I never played a kung fu RPG before. Think KOTOR but with Kung Fu Can't remember too much about it but it was fun.
Posted: Dec 29th 2011 2:09AM Lance001 said
@Ebok007 Wow...love being downvoted for asking how good a game is. Kinda expected a little more love from the Joystiq community. Should I insult more people instead of asking nicely? Does that get me a thought-out response instead of flames?
I honestly just wanted to know what this game was about. But hatred's fine too, I guess. Sheesh.
Reply
I honestly just wanted to know what this game was about. But hatred's fine too, I guess. Sheesh.
Posted: Dec 29th 2011 6:02AM shadowskill11 said
@Lance001 ...or you could just type Jade Empire into google and read 1001 reviews since it was a AAA game in it's day.
Reply
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 1:50PM slickie said
I've always felt that paying $15 a month for access to the entire game is infinitely preferable to having free access to half of the game and having the other half locked behind multiple separate purchases that end up being more expensive in the long run.
Reply
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 8:09PM Lord Foortwenti said
@Mmmmz Yeah, but what you aren't realizing is this....
When you pay "full price", as you call it, you are paying $50-60 for a game that, in this day and age, you will get MAYBE 50 hours from, at the absolute most a hundred.
But, when you pay $40 for a MMO, and then pay the monthly sub, you are getting, and this is no hyperbole, THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of hours of gameplay.
So, you tell me, which is the better value? 50-60 bucks for MAYBE a hundred hours in the rarest of cases? Or 40 + monthly sub for THOUSANDS of hours?
Reply
When you pay "full price", as you call it, you are paying $50-60 for a game that, in this day and age, you will get MAYBE 50 hours from, at the absolute most a hundred.
But, when you pay $40 for a MMO, and then pay the monthly sub, you are getting, and this is no hyperbole, THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of hours of gameplay.
So, you tell me, which is the better value? 50-60 bucks for MAYBE a hundred hours in the rarest of cases? Or 40 + monthly sub for THOUSANDS of hours?
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 8:10PM StClair said
@Mmmmz
To quote the Arbiter, "Were it so easy."
Publishers want a continuing revenue stream, and whether that comes from an ongoing subscription or nickel-and-diming you for every expansion and perk for every character, they're going to try to keep getting you to pay up.
Reply
To quote the Arbiter, "Were it so easy."
Publishers want a continuing revenue stream, and whether that comes from an ongoing subscription or nickel-and-diming you for every expansion and perk for every character, they're going to try to keep getting you to pay up.
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 10:58PM Hyperion45 said
@Lord Foortwenti
I payed about $140 total for Guild Wars (all of the campaigns, and EotN) and put over 500 hours into it over the course of a few years, and it's not even a "real" MMO. (To clarify, even ArenaNet call it an "Online RPG" and not an MMO). Also, I played it casually and never got hardcore into the farming, pvp, or pve (Hard Mode, Vanquishing, etc) aspects of the game.
And I plan on doing something similar with Guild Wars 2.
My highest hope for GW2 is not that it will be a "WoW Killer" as so many people like to claim every new MMO is. I hope that it will prove the subscription model is a terrible thing, because it is just that. It's a way for companies to squeeze every last penny out of players under the pretense of "maintaining servers" when the reality is the majority of the subscription fee is pure profit (note: not revenue, profit).
With a subscription model you never truly own the game, despite having payed the initial $40 or whatever. You are basically renting the game every month, with all of your work and progress ready to be pulled away from you until you can pay up some more.
Personally I like to own the games I buy, that is why I buy them. I like being able to go back and replay a game whenever I want without a hand dipping into my wallet.
But hey, if you're happy with paying $40 for the privilege to rent a game for $15 a month then go crazy. It's your money after all.
/rant
Reply
I payed about $140 total for Guild Wars (all of the campaigns, and EotN) and put over 500 hours into it over the course of a few years, and it's not even a "real" MMO. (To clarify, even ArenaNet call it an "Online RPG" and not an MMO). Also, I played it casually and never got hardcore into the farming, pvp, or pve (Hard Mode, Vanquishing, etc) aspects of the game.
And I plan on doing something similar with Guild Wars 2.
My highest hope for GW2 is not that it will be a "WoW Killer" as so many people like to claim every new MMO is. I hope that it will prove the subscription model is a terrible thing, because it is just that. It's a way for companies to squeeze every last penny out of players under the pretense of "maintaining servers" when the reality is the majority of the subscription fee is pure profit (note: not revenue, profit).
With a subscription model you never truly own the game, despite having payed the initial $40 or whatever. You are basically renting the game every month, with all of your work and progress ready to be pulled away from you until you can pay up some more.
Personally I like to own the games I buy, that is why I buy them. I like being able to go back and replay a game whenever I want without a hand dipping into my wallet.
But hey, if you're happy with paying $40 for the privilege to rent a game for $15 a month then go crazy. It's your money after all.
/rant
Posted: Dec 29th 2011 8:50AM ahac said
@Hyperion45 WoW has 50 character slots, GW has 4, with 2 more for each expansion (less than there are classes available) and they sell additional slots. They also sell gear & skill unlocks, 'bank' space, etc...
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_In-Game_Store
I'd rather pay a subscription and not be limited like this.
Reply
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_In-Game_Store
I'd rather pay a subscription and not be limited like this.
Posted: Dec 29th 2011 4:33PM Hyperion45 said
@ahac
The limited character space is no big deal for me, since I'm not an alt-oholic. Though I can see it being a massive downside for people who like to experiment.
The gear and skill unlocks are for PvP-only characters (or for PvE characters buying skills from merchants). However you can unlock every skill on your own in PvE play (which carries over to PvP-only characters) so those packs are only for people who wish to save time and jump straight into max-level pvp with all skills and gear mods at their disposal.
As for bank spaces, you don't really need all that many unless you are a massive hoarder. Once again that's not me, so I have no issue with it, but I can see how that would irk some people. However you do have 4 (or 5, but I think the 5th was a gift to long-time players, don't quote me on that though) bank pages from the start, which is more than enough in my opinion. On top of that, if you have a PvP-only character you can use them as a mule, since they have access to your storage and won't have any items on them other than their combat gear.
Reply
The limited character space is no big deal for me, since I'm not an alt-oholic. Though I can see it being a massive downside for people who like to experiment.
The gear and skill unlocks are for PvP-only characters (or for PvE characters buying skills from merchants). However you can unlock every skill on your own in PvE play (which carries over to PvP-only characters) so those packs are only for people who wish to save time and jump straight into max-level pvp with all skills and gear mods at their disposal.
As for bank spaces, you don't really need all that many unless you are a massive hoarder. Once again that's not me, so I have no issue with it, but I can see how that would irk some people. However you do have 4 (or 5, but I think the 5th was a gift to long-time players, don't quote me on that though) bank pages from the start, which is more than enough in my opinion. On top of that, if you have a PvP-only character you can use them as a mule, since they have access to your storage and won't have any items on them other than their combat gear.
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 1:50PM DasMadHatter said
Honestly? I dont understand the issue with the subscription model. Sure, its 15 dollars a month. Thats about what Gamefly costs.
My issue with getting a game like this, is time (currently). Between work and family, there's not much time left for a game like this, that lets face it, requires a great deal of time. The longer you drag it out the more expensive it gets, like a mortgage.
And besides, right now, I can Gamefly 2 games for about 25 bucks... and seeing as Skyrim is taking up slot 1, and Assassins Creed Revelations is on the way (missed it cause of Batman/Skyrim), I can truhtfully say, I wont experience it for a while. But hey, at least when I join up, the bugs will be ironed out.
Reply
My issue with getting a game like this, is time (currently). Between work and family, there's not much time left for a game like this, that lets face it, requires a great deal of time. The longer you drag it out the more expensive it gets, like a mortgage.
And besides, right now, I can Gamefly 2 games for about 25 bucks... and seeing as Skyrim is taking up slot 1, and Assassins Creed Revelations is on the way (missed it cause of Batman/Skyrim), I can truhtfully say, I wont experience it for a while. But hey, at least when I join up, the bugs will be ironed out.
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 6:09PM (Unverified) said
@Vocality Yeah but a girl would be much more likely to go with you to the movie than want to watch you play an mmo.
Reply
Posted: Dec 29th 2011 12:14PM Chiren said
@Jetleo1
Ahhh no don't understate it.
You need to feed her too, or convince her to pay for her steak (if she orders steak), or offer to pay only if she orders the chicken.
And if you go to the movies, you'll probably end up watching some chick flick like Sherlock Holmes or Pirates of the Caribbean, or something with Ryan Gosling in it.
Reply
Ahhh no don't understate it.
You need to feed her too, or convince her to pay for her steak (if she orders steak), or offer to pay only if she orders the chicken.
And if you go to the movies, you'll probably end up watching some chick flick like Sherlock Holmes or Pirates of the Caribbean, or something with Ryan Gosling in it.
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 2:00PM DarkSonata said
the problem with F2P models is that you really need to keep releasing content for your store, or else people will lose interest. You need to release new skins, new ways to give people fake power, offer people an optional "plus package" with extra inventory space and stuff, or just make some sort of gambling game in which they must pay extra to get another try at the gamble and test their luck.
Unfortunately, that will cause that half of your team is going working on that stuff instead of pumping new interesting content to the lore, new maps, new bosses, new items, new blah. At the end, you have a game that is lackluster on its core.
ofc there are many exceptions, however most of the F2P games are like that nowadays ):
Reply
Unfortunately, that will cause that half of your team is going working on that stuff instead of pumping new interesting content to the lore, new maps, new bosses, new items, new blah. At the end, you have a game that is lackluster on its core.
ofc there are many exceptions, however most of the F2P games are like that nowadays ):
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 7:43PM (Unverified) said
@DarkSonata
Except that Subscription MMOs have a tendency to not add new content, and when it does come out (burning crusade) to charge for that as well.
Reply
Except that Subscription MMOs have a tendency to not add new content, and when it does come out (burning crusade) to charge for that as well.
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 2:19PM Shadowbender said
I trust in them. Believe in them.
I just hope they don't stray too far off-course or anything. They just need to keep their eyes on the prize. Remember where they came from, know what I mean? I understand their emphasis on expansion, but they can't allow themselves to forget what makes BioWare...BioWare.
But I ramble.
Reply
I just hope they don't stray too far off-course or anything. They just need to keep their eyes on the prize. Remember where they came from, know what I mean? I understand their emphasis on expansion, but they can't allow themselves to forget what makes BioWare...BioWare.
But I ramble.
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 2:38PM Space Cobra said
I feel Bioware began this MMO *as* a sub-model, even before EA's buyout and stuck with it. EA, of course, has urged them on. Just because Bioware has taken some other duties, like with the Warhammer-lite/MOBA doesn't mean it's fully involved. I think it's swallowed up Mythic and whatever team was left and is just lightly doing stuff there. I do not see a focus on that.
If any of their previous properties or even new IPs, created by Bioware come out, I see more eagerness from the studio to support such a game (not other people's "leftovers").
Reply
If any of their previous properties or even new IPs, created by Bioware come out, I see more eagerness from the studio to support such a game (not other people's "leftovers").
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 2:40PM Doublethink said
The problem with a subscription model for The Old Republic is that it truthfully does not feel like an MMO - it feels like an incredibly refined single player experience in a world that is shared with other people taking part in the same experience. That was the impression I got from the beta, and though I loved it, I was not going to pay $15 a month for what amounted to a single player experience.
Reply
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 3:02PM (Unverified) said
@Doublethink This is exactly what I felt from the beta too, and my conclusion was the same. I'm not going to pay 15$ a month to play KOTOR 3.
Reply
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 3:06PM (Unverified) said
@Doublethink
And this is precisely why I am playing it. I stopped playing MMOs after Everquest, periodically putting some time into them here and there just to confirm that they are not right for me.
I literally have put in 60+ hours into the game already and am loving it so far.
Reply
And this is precisely why I am playing it. I stopped playing MMOs after Everquest, periodically putting some time into them here and there just to confirm that they are not right for me.
I literally have put in 60+ hours into the game already and am loving it so far.
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 3:30PM Space Cobra said
@(Unverified)
Same here. I already knew before Beta it had a strong single-player experience, but the online arenas are fun, too.
I probably have more money to spend than most folks. I don't have a monthly cable or satellite bill and paying $15 a month as opposed to $60 a month for a new game (or three) isn't that bad a deal for my situation.
Reply
Same here. I already knew before Beta it had a strong single-player experience, but the online arenas are fun, too.
I probably have more money to spend than most folks. I don't have a monthly cable or satellite bill and paying $15 a month as opposed to $60 a month for a new game (or three) isn't that bad a deal for my situation.
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 6:32PM Chief Oddball said
@Doublethink
Interesting. Your post actually makes me *more* interested in trying out, and potentially paying for, SWTOR. I wish more MMOs were like open-world single-player experiences where other NPCs are actual humans, as opposed to arena-like free-for-alls. Thank you for the insight.
Reply
Interesting. Your post actually makes me *more* interested in trying out, and potentially paying for, SWTOR. I wish more MMOs were like open-world single-player experiences where other NPCs are actual humans, as opposed to arena-like free-for-alls. Thank you for the insight.
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 6:36PM Doublethink said
@Chief Oddball:
I definitely recommend giving it a try if you're interested - it's a very impressive game and I greatly enjoyed my time playing it. I just wish that it were boxed as KotOR 3, which is what it feels like, rather than a subscription-based MMO.
In all honesty, if I didn't already have a commitment to my WoW guild and friends there, I would probably suck it up and pay the $15 a month, because it really is a good game. It just doesn't feel MMO enough for me to justify jumping the WoW ship just yet.
Reply
I definitely recommend giving it a try if you're interested - it's a very impressive game and I greatly enjoyed my time playing it. I just wish that it were boxed as KotOR 3, which is what it feels like, rather than a subscription-based MMO.
In all honesty, if I didn't already have a commitment to my WoW guild and friends there, I would probably suck it up and pay the $15 a month, because it really is a good game. It just doesn't feel MMO enough for me to justify jumping the WoW ship just yet.
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 6:54PM Chief Oddball said
@Doublethink
Wow, I think you just sold me -- I had always kinda grumbled a bit that we got SWTOR instead of KOTOR 3.
Reply
Wow, I think you just sold me -- I had always kinda grumbled a bit that we got SWTOR instead of KOTOR 3.
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 3:04PM RickGhastly said
I'm honestly fine with subscriptions if I'm interested enough in the game. What I have issues with is retail pricing. I may be in the minority here, but it's hard to stomach paying $60 for an MMO; that's a fairly big leap of faith when you can't try it out / sell it if you're disappointed etc. For me, it's simply not worth the gamble when there's even the scant possibility that I won't even be playing it in a month.
Reply
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 3:33PM Skorpeyon said
Honestly, if SWTOR wasn't bringing so much to the table, I'd say it wouldn't be worth it. But actually PLAYING the game is so much fun that it's totally worth the subscription fee. You're not just playing a game, grinding through the same missions over and over. Well, you are, but each time you can have a different end result. I can have my one Bounty Hunter be a dick, while at the same time starting another one and being a goodie-two-shoes. Not that I WOULD do that, but I CAN. Not to mention the fact that you get companions who actually interact with you, and the voice acting, and the potential for romantic situations with your companions, and it's just... a lotta actual stuff going on as you play. Not just "go here, do this, come back" but "go here, do this, come back, and in the meantime try to keep your alignment going the way you want it, don't piss off your companion, etc."
Reply
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 4:29PM (Unverified) said
What pisses me of about subscription games is that you have to pay the monthly subscription fee on top of buying the game and all of its expansions and that costs a helluva lot. Whereas f2p mmo's you don’t have to pay for the game or expansion and they are frequently updated anyways (albeit get boring much quicker than P2P mmo’s). But your also able to leave anytime and don't have to mess around with cancelling subscriptions or forgetting you still have on-going subscription fees taken from your bank even though you aren’t playing the game anymore.
Reply
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 4:30PM ch3burashka said
You guys know what this means? Galaxies is coming back!!!
Reply
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 6:46PM AMonkey said
Subscription fees are simply pure profit. Boxed sales can carry the game for years (and Bioware already charged £10 more than other PC games) and DLC and services (like server transfers) enable an MMO to be profitable.
Bioware talking out of their ass again.
Reply
Bioware talking out of their ass again.
Posted: Dec 28th 2011 7:44PM (Unverified) said
That's all well and good, but I won't be sampling Old Republic unless it's free to play.
Reply
Posted: Dec 29th 2011 12:52AM Dol said
Well I just bought a few games at $60.00 from Steam Daily Deals .
AA - AAA PC games price range at $2.49 - $7.99.
These games can last me till June then I will buy GW2.
Meanwhile if I wanna get my MMO fix, just DL these F2P games -
Firefall, Lineage 2, DCUO, Tribes and STO.
Most of these games come with different gameplay.
In my opinion monthly subs is not viable anymore after 2011.
Reply
AA - AAA PC games price range at $2.49 - $7.99.
These games can last me till June then I will buy GW2.
Meanwhile if I wanna get my MMO fix, just DL these F2P games -
Firefall, Lineage 2, DCUO, Tribes and STO.
Most of these games come with different gameplay.
In my opinion monthly subs is not viable anymore after 2011.
Posted: Dec 29th 2011 12:22PM PantsBoom said
It doesn't matter how much EA spent developing it. It will either go F2P or have a smaller population after the 'new' wears off.- And no, MMOs do not provide thousands of hours of gameplay compared to a normal game. What they do is stretch the gameplay out, and put you into a treadmill to accomplish goals. A normal game could do the very same thing. This was originally done to enhance the time for social interaction, and cooperation (or disruption).
GW does not sell gear. They sell costumes that do nothing but provide an clothing/armor skin that can be shown over your actual armor. The skill unlock packs were originally created so people who didn't wish to PvE, could immediately jump into pvp and not be at a disadvantage. Later they added Balth faction, torches, etc. so they became a lot less relevant. Addtional bank slots and character slots are available, but the number they give you with all three games (4 bank slots, 8 character slots) is more than most people ever needed.
Reply
GW does not sell gear. They sell costumes that do nothing but provide an clothing/armor skin that can be shown over your actual armor. The skill unlock packs were originally created so people who didn't wish to PvE, could immediately jump into pvp and not be at a disadvantage. Later they added Balth faction, torches, etc. so they became a lot less relevant. Addtional bank slots and character slots are available, but the number they give you with all three games (4 bank slots, 8 character slots) is more than most people ever needed.
Posted: Dec 29th 2011 5:13PM KrazyCalvin said
Why in the world would they slaughter their cash cow before they have had time to milk it?
Reply
Posted: Dec 30th 2011 4:18AM UnSub said
He's wrong. A F2P title could spend the $100m+ that SWOR cost in developing a game. They'd then build a payment model that matched that expense. They probably wouldn't though because it would be too expensive for anyone but EA and BioWare.
There's a solid chance that SWOR is the most expensive video game to date, and certainly EA's biggest project. The level of resources SWOR got isn't because it is a subscription-based game, it is because EA desperately wants a MMO to match WoW and because they gave a blank cheque book to BioWare to make it. So the F2P devs wouldn't spend that kind of money because pretty much no-one else has the desire and the resources to even try.
Plus I think this comment will bite BioWare in the ass when SWOR announces its cash shop / RMT store.
Reply
There's a solid chance that SWOR is the most expensive video game to date, and certainly EA's biggest project. The level of resources SWOR got isn't because it is a subscription-based game, it is because EA desperately wants a MMO to match WoW and because they gave a blank cheque book to BioWare to make it. So the F2P devs wouldn't spend that kind of money because pretty much no-one else has the desire and the resources to even try.
Plus I think this comment will bite BioWare in the ass when SWOR announces its cash shop / RMT store.
Sorry, you must be logged in to leave a comment.
Featured Stories
Persona 3, Tactics Ogre, and other PSP RPGs that will live on my Vita
Posted on Feb 22nd 2012 5:45PM
The most popular posts
in the last 7 days
- Rumor: Japanese Vita devs jumping ship, Sony responds 124 comments
- Buy 2 get 1 free on select Vita games at GameStop starting today 114 comments
- Sony's Rohde: proprietary Vita cards 'completely necessary' to combat piracy 112 comments
- Sony: Call of Duty blasting onto Vita this fall 89 comments
- Asura's Wrath review: Wrecking the curve 84 comments










