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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 4:45PM SmashZilla said

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I really enjoyed reading this as the "Rogue" genre has recently become a favorite of mine.

I haven't tried BoI yet but it looks like I must now. The iphone library also has a surprising amount of quality Rogue games. 100 Rogues comes immediately to mind for me. Pixel Slime and Legend of Yore are also fun, yet very basic.

I think the ability to create a game that has random elements and levels really is a testament to high caliber game design. Rogue titles seem to fit this well, at least the ones I've played.
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 4:46PM greyloki said

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We don't call first-person shooters "Doomlikes"

Uh......for a very long time, every FPS was called a Doom-clone or (if you were a marketing person or a magazine editor) a "Doom Killer". Then they switched over to "Quake clone".
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 4:51PM (Unverified) said

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@greyloki A disdainful name from 15 years ago is not really the same thing as a commonly accepted genre title. Doom et al were always called first-person shooters if you weren't being a jerk about it.
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 4:55PM greyloki said

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@(Unverified) It wasn't used as a disdainful name, that's what they called them.
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 4:58PM Granger said

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Truth. Same with 'Tetrislikes'. To this day, every falling object puzzle game draws direct comparisons to Tetris by everyone in the media. It used to be every new one on the market was 'one of the best spins on Tetris to come along in a while'. I think the last high profile titles to get christened as such were Lumines and Meteos.

A noble stab at capturing our attention with that introduction, but it doesn't really work. Perhaps the problem isn't that there's a 'genre' called 'roguelikes' but that everything needs to be a genre and so we have a genre for everything.
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 5:03PM (Unverified) said

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@Granger There is a difference between "comparison" and "naming after." I can say that Meteos is in the same genre as Tetris, but I can also name that genre "puzzle games." There is no other word for "Roguelike" than, well, "Roguelike."

I hope you can see that that is a fairly notable difference.
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Posted: Jan 27th 2012 12:28PM Michelobius said

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@(Unverified)
I'm really annoyed by this whole conversation, not only because Roguelike is such a dumb name, but there's a much better one that's already super common.

Diablo is a Dungeon Crawler. This seems like a huge oversight for an article that specifically points out how dumb Roguelike is.
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Posted: Feb 2nd 2012 9:08PM This Little Man Says His Name Is said

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@Michelobius

The article wasn't calling Diablo a Rougelike, it was using it as an example of other games which aren't Rougelikes taking on Rougelike aspects.
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 4:54PM Acosta02 said

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Hmmmm, really weird that you passed over Spelunky and Dwarf Fortress for not being RPGs but then discuss Desktop Dungeons, a puzzle game.
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 5:30PM (Unverified) said

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@Acosta02 Don't think it's that weird. You can argue that Desktop Dungeons is a puzzle game, and I probably would, but it has the form of an RPG far more than the other two.
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Posted: Jan 20th 2012 2:17AM Yhynens said

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@(Unverified) Honestly, I would argue that Desktop Dungeons is far less an RPG than Dwarfort. In Dwarfort you have a party that you build by choosing their stats and starting equipment, and then they gain experience on those stats consistently and also have HP (even if it is split up amongst about a zillion different pieces of the body.) You don't get to choose the stats of migrant dwarves, but you do effectively get to decide what they're going to train in. In Desktop Dungeons you have stats, but the stats are basically just an abstraction to facilitate the puzzle aspects of the game.
The only thing that makes Dwarfort less of an RPG is that the goal isn't to accomplish anything, really, it's just to not die for as long as you can. There also are, in a way, "final bosses" to fight. On the other hand, I would say that it really isn't a roguelike, at least not by the stipulations you laid out. The terrain and geology is randomly generated, yes, but it takes a really long time to set up your embark party and even when you're new to the game it can take a good ten or twelve hours before your fort finally dies. I'd say Dwarfort is a really good hybrid of sim game and RPG; it even has an RPG mode built right into the game. I'd actually like to hear what aspects of it you think make it less of an RPG and more something else.

Other than that, good article. I look forward to seeing more from you.
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Posted: Jan 20th 2012 2:24AM (Unverified) said

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@Yhynens Well, my simple response is that it's presented as a strategy game because it involves a multitude of different characters. Sure, you start with a small party, but eventually you have dozens, hundreds of dwarves. You also only control those dozens of dwarves indirectly. I don't know of any other RPG that works like that.
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Posted: Jan 20th 2012 2:47AM Yhynens said

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@(Unverified) I agree with you there, especially on the population front. It's definitely a very different feel from an RPG where your biggest parties are usually the size of your starting group in DF. But there aren't really ANY games where you control characters indirectly like you do in DF. (All I can come up with is Actraiser's peasants... Maybe AI teams in action RPGs. Ogre Battle, but not really.) The element comes from sim games, but they don't have characters (specifically statted characters) in the way that DF does, which is why I think it's a good fusion between sims and RPGs. I definitely see where you're coming from for leaning toward the sim side of things, though.

Also, you don't ONLY control the dwarves indirectly; you can give direct orders to your militia dwarves. But the granularity of the order is basically the same as strategy games: Group X, Kill Y. So it's still a valid point.
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Posted: Jan 20th 2012 3:31AM (Unverified) said

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@Yhynens There are actually a fair amount of strategy games which use indirect control. Populous and Majesty are good examples. But I think the closest parallel to Dwarf Fortress are the old Dungeon Keeper games - which, incidentally, were also initially RPGs before switching over to a more strategic form.
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Posted: Jan 20th 2012 12:54PM Yhynens said

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@(Unverified) Oh yeah, Populous! Totally forgot about those games.
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 5:01PM (Unverified) said

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I wouldn't really consider diablo a rogue-like based on the lack of a required permadeath... because lets be fair who does play permadeath in diablo?
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 5:12PM LockeDaemonfire said

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@(Unverified)

People who are hardcore.
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Posted: Jan 20th 2012 11:47AM Mr Meow Meow said

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@(Unverified) I still don't even understand why "Extremely difficult" is a requirement for this genera. What are we supposed to call games that fit all the other criteria, but aren't actually that difficult (like Pokemon Mystery Dungeon and Izuna: The Unemployed Ninja)?
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Posted: Jan 20th 2012 1:13PM (Unverified) said

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@Mr Meow Meow

I call them "roguelites".
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 5:02PM Deathofthedead said

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For my money the best roguelike of the last few years was Shiren the Wanderer: Mysterious Dungeon for the DS. Incredibly challenging, with a storyline that slowly changes as you make attempt after attempt through the dungeons.
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 5:04PM MayorMikeHaggar said

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"It controls like a pre-3D Legend Of Zelda, where movement and pattern recognition are the keys to victory."

Actually, it controls like a Smash TV. The game has a bit of a Zelda aesthetic, but the controls aren't even similar. :\

Also, Fatal Labyrinth on the Genesis is a great roguelike... if you don't have access to it, it's on Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection on X360/PS3/PC. You will certainly die, but the more money you collect before you die, the better funeral they throw you. I loved that.
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 5:06PM MayorMikeHaggar said

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"It controls like a pre-3D Legend Of Zelda, where movement and pattern recognition are the keys to victory."

No it doesn't. It's a dual-stick shooter. It controls like a smash TV if anything. :\
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 5:10PM MayorMikeHaggar said

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@MayorMikeHaggar

sorry for the double comment... something went amiss
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 5:11PM Dante G said

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I played the Binding of Isaac and Dungeons of Dredmor during the steam holiday sale in order to get their holiday achievements.

I must say I was very underwhelmed by BoI. It feels like a crappy flash game IMO. It was $2.50 IIRC and I felt robbed. I didn't play it for more than 1 hour, but that first impression wasn't good at all.

Dungeons of Dredmor on the other hand was very addictive, funny and interesting. It was also cheaper than BoI btw.
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 6:12PM Ryuk said

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@Dante G

You're saying that for $2.50 you didn't get your moneys-worth out of the Binding of Isaac? I have over 20 hours in that "underwhelming flash game". I guess it depends on taste, but I found it to be addicting and pretty fun. Discovering the new items and trying to get the best combination possible to defeat mom was really fun to me.
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Posted: Jan 20th 2012 1:56AM DaDiddles said

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@Dante G

I could not possibly have had a more polar opposite first impression of Binding of Isaac. I played the game for hours.

I'm not sure exactly what it is. I think it's because it's one of only a handful of games I've ever played that I consider so stylistically consistent and pitch-perfect in tone that I get fully immersed while playing it.

Sure the randomness can be frustrating, but I learned quickly not to "play to win" but rather to just play and see what happens. I'd say try it again, because it's quite enthralling.
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 6:09PM shteevie said

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Based on the aesthetics, I wouldn't touch Binding of Isaac with a sanitized and disposable 10-foot pole. Dredmore doesn't sound fun at all from how you have described it, though I have a few friends who really enjoy it.

I always felt that a key component to the rogue-like genre was the 'a turn is a turn' mechanic, which 100 rogues and Izuna and Chocobo's Dungeon preserved, but Diablo didn't. I don't know if Dredmore or BoI do, and the enemies in Desktop Dungeons are static, which you failed to mention.

Thnaks to the other commenters for their suggestions!
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 6:40PM (Unverified) said

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@shteevie I was initially put off by Isaac's aesthetics as well, though they might have worked in Super Meat Boy but this seemed over the top. But I picked it up in the Steam sale and found it much better than I feared.
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 5:43PM scratchh said

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I don't know what you were doing back in the day, but I bought my copy of 'Rogue' by Epyx for the Macintosh Plus on a floppy back in the 80s.
I really loved the true graphics over the ASCII appearance of most Rougelikes.

I was thrilled when RogueTouch was released for iOS, as it basically captures the exact same feel as Rogue from back in the day. For me, that is good enough.
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 6:20PM omicron1 said

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I would say that the comments concerning the genre itself are wildly inaccurate. "Stripped down" is the least of what Roguelikes are. From NetHack's melange of thousands of things, enemies, and puns to Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup's finely-balanced, honed gameplay; ADOM's more story-driven architecture and mutation mechanic; Unreal World's aimless survivalism; and Angband's sheer scale, roguelikes are anything but stripped-down RPGs. They are the most mechanically vibrant, interesting, and gameplay-oriented genre in existence - nothing even comes close.
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Posted: Jan 20th 2012 11:54AM Mr Meow Meow said

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@omicron1 I think he's talking about the RPG aspect, not the game aspect. Most of that stuff has nothing to do with how RPG-y it is, and more to do with how much meat there is to the game itself. What makes a game an RPG is the stats and such, everything else is what makes it playable to someone that doesn't find joy from watching Excel Spreadsheets (or doesn't have imagination or drugs to see that Spreadsheet as dragons or something).
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Posted: Jan 20th 2012 7:08PM omicron1 said

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@Mr Meow Meow And if that's your definition of RPG, I would again direct you to Nethack: Six stats, twenty-ish skills, items with to-hit and to-damage ratings, armor class... heck, NetHack itself (and most of the older generation of Roguelikes) is based pretty directly on the conceits and ideas of Dungeons and Dragons. While Binding of Isaac may be light on the stat-and-skill department, you will find numbers enough to sate your every inner yearning if you care to look past the pretty veneer of the genre into the games that make up its meaty core.
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 6:56PM serialsleeper said

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I really wouldn't call Diablo the "King of all Roguelikes". Sure it's super popular but there's a lot better stuff out there.
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 7:43PM (Unverified) said

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I'm going to have to agree with most of the points made in the comments, and few made in the actual article. As someone who holds the specific genre in incredibly high esteem, my nerd rage is flaring.
Diablo is not "king of all roguelikes" any more than Dwarf Fortress is, which a large part of the community would say has a better claim to the title based on the permadeath alone. If I had to pick one, Rogue itself is an obvious choice, for being the first to combine its specific defining attributes in a way that really caught on. If anything, Diablo-clones are a subgenre of roguelikes the same way Doom-clones are a subgenre of first-person shooters. (points at Torchlight)
I'm going to have to give serious credit to omicron1 for so eloquently defending the things that make the genre so distinctive. It's obvious the author of the article isn't the kind of gamer who can appreciate a proper RL for what it is, as evidenced by his blatant dismissal of Dungeons of Dredmor for its adherence to form. It's obvious that the shorter play sessions of Desktop Dungeons and the action-based gameplay and imagery of the Binding of Isaac simply had more sway, and that's fine.
But to someone unfamiliar with the genre, what the author's glazed over entirely with the tone of the article is that the heavily stat-based traditional roguelikes offer tactical gameplay that was unprecedented for its time, and still outpaces many modern games in terms of replayability. What's been unspoken through the whole article is the fact that the feature sets of these games were sacrificing graphics for dynamic enemy AI, terrain modification, randomly generated item and enemy placement, and combat systems on par with their tabletop counterparts back when people were still playing Asteroids in arcades. They're literally almost entirely gameplay, and it's a shame that the article dropped the ball on a genre with so much to offer that gets so little coverage.
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Posted: Jan 20th 2012 11:59AM Mr Meow Meow said

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@(Unverified) You need to pay more to Pop culture if you're going to make such claims. Being the "King of Genera" in the Pop culture world means that you're the most popular. Just look at the King of Pop and Rock. Micheal Jackson and Elvis are hardly the greatest Pop and Rock artist ever, but they sell the most CDs. Also, Dragon Ball Z is considered the Grandad of All Anime in the US, even though it isn't anywhere near the oldest anime and isn't even the best.
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 9:12PM Azurist said

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I have to query if the author of this article has played many roguelikes before. Those 'hard choices' that you like about DD? They're the heart and soul of roguelikes- being placed in a harsh environment and learning to recognise the ways to escape dangerous situations. As I've said before, the only real resemblance to a roguelike that BoI has is its randomisation.
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Posted: Jan 19th 2012 11:03PM zombieguy said

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I'll have to check out the binding of isaac. i'm pretty unfamiliar with rougelikes, but aren't there JRPG rougelikes too? Like on the DS?
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Posted: Jan 20th 2012 1:37AM Azurist said

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@zombieguy You're probably thinking of the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon series- those are the first ones that come to mind.
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Posted: Jan 20th 2012 11:54AM Alexisonfire said

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@Azurist
The Pokemon Mystery Dungeon series is a simple, easier offshoot of the Mystery Dungeon series. This also includes the Shiren, the Chocobo's Dungeon, and the Torneko's Great Adventure (starring Torneko of Dragon Quest IV fame) series
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Posted: Jan 20th 2012 2:31AM Yhynens said

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@GiantGamer Yeah, but a lot of modern roguelikes forego that element entirely, so I can see why it's not covered here. He can't really cover every aspect of the genre, after all.

I think the thing that was neatest about food was that in Nethack what really drives you down into deeper levels of the dungeon is the need to feed. I'm not really sure that a situation like what you're explaining ever even happens in Nethack--my experience with other roguelikes is pretty limited, though. Exploring those side rooms usually results in more enemies which is more food--at least in Nethack, you're never really directly penalized for exploring, unless you run into bad news. You'd be just as likely to run into more food exploring sideways as if you were progressing downwards, assuming you're going to places you haven't already explored.
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Posted: Jan 20th 2012 8:55AM StaticDet5 said

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I'm kind of amazed that any discussion of "Roguelike" games doesn't have a significant portion devoted to "Nethack". Rogue was a great game, don't get me wrong. However, Nethack started the "Roguelike" game, continued the game-type, and is still being made available for new systems (by the community). You want a good "Roguelike" game, go grab Nethack. It's free, it's MASSIVE (as Yhynens said), and still playable, 20+ years later.

Definitely check it out.
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Posted: Jan 20th 2012 9:53AM vidjagamer said

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Loving these articles about games in general.
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Posted: Jan 20th 2012 11:56AM Alexisonfire said

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Since we're talking about excellent small, bite sized, downloadable roguelikes, anyone with a 360 should check out Cursed Loot on XBLIG.

Absolutely one of the best games on the system.
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Posted: Jan 21st 2012 8:25AM boatie said

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Dungeons of Dredmor is the only one of these games that is a roguelike though. Binding of Isaac (which I love) and Desktop Dungeons (which is ok) are both different types of games that use elements of roguelikes to make a new genre. Especially Desktop Dungeons which is largely a puzzle game.
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Posted: Jan 21st 2012 11:18PM (Unverified) said

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Like the article. Most of the best 'Rouge-like' games have been freeware. Which explains the niche presence they've had for so long. I highly suggest people take a look at Teknopant's Shoot First. It's a top down shooter much like 'Binding of Isaac.'

I use to called rouge-like games perma-death games. Which I found more fitting.

I think 'Binding of Isaac' is excellent. I got it for free but it's one of the most surprising retail games to every grace my PC/Gamepad.
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